Conversation With A Mormon

Recently Megan posted a news story on Facebook about two gay men who were arrested in Utah because they were kissing. A former Mormon acquaintance commented on the story, defending the Mormon church and placing the blame on the people who were arrested. I was feeling particularly annoyed that day about how dumb religion is, so I took the opportunity to point out some absurdities in the Mormon religion. As would be expected, a shit storm of stupidity followed. A copy of the conversation that occurred is included below. To protect the stupid I'll be referring to the Mormon only as "Z." Z's words are in green, mine are in red, and Megan's are in orange. Comments that I've added after the fact to clarify information about Mormon beliefs or acronyms are in brackets and purple, like [this]. In these events I've taken care to not insert my slant, but only state what people believe or what a commonly accepted idea is.

Since most of the people reading this probably aren't familiar with Mormonism, I'll give a brief little run down. Mormonism was started in the 1820's by Joseph Smith. According to the Mormon mythology, Joseph Smith was going around trying to figure out which church was true. Eventually while out praying in some grove he received revelation from God that none of the churches were true, and that Joseph Smith himself would start the one true church (funny how these revelations only seem to happen to people who are alone. Apparently God just hopes that these people will somehow convince the rest of the world they weren't making it up?) Joseph Smith was then led by the angel Moroni to a bunch of buried golden plates. He translated the plates by putting them in a hat and receiving divine revelation that let him know what the foreign words on the plates meant. That translation became the book of Mormon. There are other important books in the Mormon religion as well, such as the Pearl of Great Price (discussed below), Word of Wisdom, and the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smith was shot to death by an angry mob in 1844.

Some of the notable aspects of Mormonism include an adherence to polygamy (although this was later nixed - discussed below), a belief that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Jews, and a belief that people with dark skin are cursed by God but can become white if they try hard enough (apparently Michael Jackson must have been a good Mormon then...). Mormons generally refer to themselves as LDS (Latter Day Saints) instead of Mormons, as they believe that they are the "Church of Latter Day Saints."

Without further ado, I give you a conversation with a Mormon.

Z.
What the article fails to mention is what really happened. They said that they just gave each other a kiss on the cheek, but in fact they were fondling and making out. When asked to leave, they became obstinate, it was only then that police were called and the couple trespassed.

Megan
The church says they were making out, the gay couple says they were giving innocent kisses. Given the church's views on morality and homosexuality, I'm inclined to believe the gay couple over the church. If I felt I wasn't doing anything wrong and was asked to leave, I might get obstinate too. It's not that I support "trespassing", it's that I DON'T support profiling and intolerance...two things the church excels at.

Ty
The article also fails to mention that Joseph Smith was widely known as a con man before forming his religion that allowed him to screw as many women at one time as he wanted. It also fails to mention that he claimed there would be aliens on the moon, and what do you know, no aliens on the moon. It also fails to mention that the "translation" of the Pearl of Great Price from the Egyptian papyrus was 100% wrong. Should I keep going with things it failed to mention?

Z.
Man, Ty, you are probably one of the most uneducated, backwards ignorant people I have ever met. Considering none of your information is actually backed by real facts I can also say that Barack Obama is Osama Bin Laden's son and that astronauts actually did find an intelligent race on the moon called the Juggermeins...ridiculous. At any rate everyone in Utah knows that the church owns that property-it's come up many times before, and so I don't have any respect for the couple that went there attempting to incite this. Also video surveillance was released to the prosecutor's office, and if the church was attempting to hide something, don't you think that they wouldn't have released that?

Ty
Uh-oh, I’ve angried up the Mormon. Hopefully he doesn’t use his magic Priesthood powers against me! [Mormon fathers bestow a blessing of the Priesthood onto their sons when they reach maturity - Mormon's believe this blessing gives them special powers from God] Funny that you’ve called me ignorant, yet you seem to lack a basic understanding of your own religion. Even the LDS church does not deny 2 of my 3 assertions. On the topic of Joseph Smith conning folk out of their money for his (pre-Angel Moroni) stone-in-the-hat divinations, see http://tiny.cc/imLYy (citations 3 and 4). A detailed breakdown of how Joseph Smith’s “translation” of the papyri differs from reality can be found at http://tiny.cc/ZakSP. There are many online and offline sources on the Mormon moon people belief. A few places to get started are http://tiny.cc/9BrRh, http://tiny.cc/bymBY, and http://tiny.cc/CC0JT

Z.
You probably missed out on the part where is says that many people believed in stones-also if your family was barely making it, wouldn't you go treasure hunt if someone was offering you almost double what you could make digging a canal. [Z. is referring to the part in one of my links where the author of the book states that treasure hunting through divination was a lucrative job at the time and that many people besides Joseph Smith partook in such activities] As for your second reference, guess what, the "Egyptologists" were solicited by a reverend probably anti-LDS, and guess what, when politicians seek out good numbers, they go to places where they will get them. Read a little lower and you'll see another Egyptologist contradict what the previous ones stated. Also, don't even begin to judge people on their religion when all you read is anti-LDS literature, if you do that, then guess what, you are ignorant.

Ty
You've failed to understand that your statement does not help your argument - it destroys it. If everyone at the time believed in seer stones, and that belief was incorrect, then why didn't J.S. [Joseph Smith] receive revelation that he shouldn't be participating? If all doctrines at the time were an abomination (as the Lord said to Joseph Smith in the grove) then were not seer stones also an abomination? You've also given him a reason to con people - to make more money. Since you've admitted that people believed in seer stones, and acknowledged that the belief is stupid, then why do you believe in a religion based on seer stones? [The golden plates that Joseph Smith translated through hat divination] Moreover, your decision to argue against the false translation of the papyri puts you at odds with LDS doctrine. Books written by Mormon apologists admit the translation was false, but defend J.S. anyway by saying that he wasn't actually translating it, but rather using it as a guide to receive revelation. By arguing against me you are actually going against LDS teachings and are therefore subject to Outer Darkness when you die. Enjoy hell! [Mormons do not believe in hell in the same way that other Christian denominations do. Mormons believe in several tiers of heaven starting with the Terrestrial Kingdom and ending with the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone is automatically "saved" and goes to the Terrestrial Kingdom - except for people who were Mormon and then deny church doctrine. Those people go to "Outer Darkness," which is the Mormon equivalent of hell] You’ve also made the mistake of assuming I only read anti-LDS literature. Why do you think I have such a disdain for Mormonism? I’ve read its ridiculous teachings.

Megan
Z. I'm not sure why you choose to frame your debate the way you did. Just because people at the time believed in magical stones doesn't mean that that belief was correct. People have believed many foolish things throughout history that were later disproved. And yes, if my family was barely making it I would do whatever it took to improve the situation. For Joseph Smith this meant "treasure hunting", as well as reading fortunes from stones in hats. This doesn't necessarily make J.S. a "bad person", but it does cast doubt on his claims that he received divine revelation because the method with which he received the "divine revelation" was so similar to his, however well-intentioned, money-making scheme.

Also, the definition of the word "ignorant" is "lacking in knowledge or training". Just because you don't like what a person says in regard to a subject doesn't mean you can call them ignorant. Ty and I have studied both Mormon and non-Mormon literature on the church. The information provided by the church is often very cleaned-up and self-serving, and honestly, why wouldn't it be? Every organization wants to present themselves in the best possible light, but that often sacrifices the integrity of the information. I contend that by having MORE information about the church, and from a wide variety of sources, we're MORE knowledgeable about Mormonism than the average person, and certainly more knowledgeable than the average church member. I understand how our opinions on this would be conflicting, but you can't call a person "ignorant" simply because you don't like their information.

Z.
Megan, sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've been busy with work. First off, the way in which your husband has gone after LDS is pretty ignorant. If you want to convert someone to your cause, don't post hateful things, so yes, that is ignorance. Second, the LDS church has spoken out about one issue that they feel ardently about and you seem (along with many others) to hate what the church stands for solely based on us voting for what we believe in. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it wasn't just the "Mormons" who passed prop 8. We never denied them the rights of marriage, we simply wanted to protect the institution of marriage which has always been between a man and woman. People seem to look past the mark when other denominations (and non-Christians) have gone out an protested against homosexuals, beaten them to death, etc. The LDS church welcomes homosexuals, but the same as it councils heterosexuals to abstain from pre-marital sex, it councils homosexuals to not practice homosexuality, for we see that as against nature and against what God wants. Some people may be born this way, but all of us have our personal challenges, some of which are very strong, but we don't hate people who have these challenges.

Again, you may not like the Church's stance on this issue, but we are approaching it in a peaceful manner, we aren't going and marching on the gays, or disrespecting their places of worship/sacred sites. Behavior like that (and what I believe these two men did) is unacceptable and won't win people over to your cause, it will only detract from it. I understand that you and your family may think that the LDS church is a horrible thing, but here's an independent site that shows some interesting statistics: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_dem.html

I believe that the church is true, I've researched many sites and sought out this knowledge, you may not believe it, but I do, and that doesn't give you the right to hate me, or what I, or the church I attend, stand for. P.S. The LDS church doesn't blow its horn that much on its humanitarian efforts, but in many instances the LDS church is the first to show up in relief efforts and has a major positive influence on the world.

Ty
So to sum up Z.s posts: He still has no idea what the word "ignorant" means, he has no evidence to suggest the claims of J.S. are true but he's going to believe them anyway, and he has no rebuttal whatsoever to our arguments. Given the LDS ever shifting stance of polygamy and blacks in the church, you should expect their stance on gay marriage to change within our lifetimes. [The Mormon church banned polygamy in 1890 when federal laws were enacted against the practice. Until 1978 blacks were also not allowed to hold positions of power in the church and could not receive the Priesthood blessing. This also changed due to federal laws against discrimination and a rising public tide against racism.] You know what Z, you can keep Mormonism. You and the LDS church deserve each other. Oh yeah, Scientology has openings too, you might be interested in their bullshit.

Z.
Once again, nice way to try to win people over to your cause. You're childish and an idiot. I didn't respond to your previous posts, because you can't argue with stubborn people, so why waste my time? You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Secondly, what does all of what you brought up have to do with how the church acts today?That's like being opposed to an article on national health care and bringing up the fact that Obama's middle name is Hussein, or that Arnold S. is "Republican".

Ty
I think what you meant to say is that you can't argue with facts. Once again you've completely missed the boat. I don't care if you convert to atheism, I just want to mock your ridiculous beliefs and watch you sputter to bring up a response. If you want to continue to believe in LDS teachings, feel free, I just want you to know that those beliefs aren't OK to have. A big invisible man in the sky, the planet Kolob [Mormons believe that God is a physical man who lives on a real planet named Kolob. Mormon apologists differ on whether this planet is meant to be Sagittarius A or Polaris], and seer stones are all absolutely not real, no matter how much you believe in them. It’s also funny that you've stated I've posted "hateful" things, yet you are the only one who has (from the very beginning) resorted to name calling. You've also stated that we "look past" other groups hating gays. Well, no, we absolutely don't. But you happen to be a Mormon, and Mormons happened to have spent millions on advertising for Prop 8 and staged huge demonstrations, so we want you to know that's not OK either. There's nothing "peaceful" about taking away basic human rights.

And of course the LDS church does good things - your salvation plan is completely based on good works. If you don't do charitable things, you don't get into the celestial kingdom. Funny how Megan and I, who are atheists, can manage to be good people without having an invisible carrot dangled in front of our noses. News flash: there is no supernatural, therefore there is no afterlife. You can believe in it all you want, but it’s still not real.

Z.
Like I said, you can believe what you believe, I know what I know, and believe it. You can't disprove God. I merely stated at the beginning that the two men were displaying extreme PDA, regardless of what they mentioned to the papers. Even if they had just kissed each other on the cheek, they were asked to leave private property (guess, what, we live in a country where we can do that). You were the one who began to say things in order to cause problems. I'm sorry that you are so delusional in you "high mindedness" that you don't realize that the way in which you approached me (and the things you constantly comment on the LDS faith) aren't going to win you any supporters, and in that regard you are ignorant in persuasion, you are hateful and you are displaying the type of behavior you hate us for, and I'm sorry that is hypocritical and stupid.

Yes, Joseph Smith believed in seer stones, to people 500 years ago, a TV would be a alien and no one would believe it. I happen to believe in God, who I believe is all powerful, and more advanced than we are, he may be able to make images appear in what one may call stones, who cares, it doesn't deter my faith. I did respond to your accusation that the Pearl of Great Price is invalid, guess what, they were paid for by someone who wanted Joseph Smith discredited, another Egyptologist stated that their comments on Joseph Smith's translations were erroneous. Third, just because in today's society polygamy is looked down upon, doesn't mean that polygamy has always been bad, or frowned upon. There are many different ways in which polygamy can be beneficial, as they were in the beginning of the church. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong. You need to get a life, rather than try to beat up people on their beliefs.

Ty
I'm including your words in quotes to streamline the arguments. “to people 500 years ago, a TV would be a alien and no one would believe it. I happen to believe in God, who I believe is all powerful, and more advanced than we are,” Oh wow, I had hoped it would be self-evident why that was a bad statement to make. Read your words again, and think about it. “You can't disprove God.” Which is in no way an argument for God’s existence. You can’t disprove that the universe was built by a miniature invisible purple elephant who wants us all to bathe thrice on Thursdays, but that doesn’t mean you have to accept it as a valid possibility. “I did respond to your accusation that the Pearl of Great Price is invalid.” You seem to be a little behind on the whole papyrus issue, so let me get you up to speed. There is no serious dissent of any kind about the accuracy of the J.S. “translation” from any sort of credible source. This is the glorious thing about Mormonism. It's young enough that we still have original artifacts to independently verify. Go ahead and print off a copy of the papyrus, as it is available online (or get the original – the LDS church still has it), and take it to an authoritative source that can translate Egyptian hieroglyphics. To avoid any issue of bias, you could even take it to a Mormon (or someone who wasn’t anti-Mormon). They will translate it, and that translation will not be the Pearl of Great Price, it will be fragments of an Egyptian burial ritual. And let’s say for the sake of argument that the J.S. translation was correct, and that the papyrus did contain the Pearl of Great Price. Why then isn't there even one single other Egyptian artifact in all the entire world that has similar information? Why isn't there any evidence at all to suggest that the Egyptians had Mormon beliefs? Oh yeah, because Joseph Smith made up his "translation" completely.

“doesn't mean that polygamy has always been bad, or frowned upon.” I’m not sure why you are defending polygamy, as I didn’t attack it. My reference to polygamy was regarding how the LDS church, which supposedly receives divine revelation, sure seems to change its mind a lot. First it was banning polygamy (with option to renew of course…) [It is a commonly held Mormon belief that one day the current prophet will proclaim that it’s OK to practice polygamy again] and then letting blacks have the Priesthood in the ‘70s, even though Brigham Young [Joseph Smith's successor who led the church after his death] specifically said that if the Mormon church ever allowed blacks to have the priesthood that God would withdraw his blessing from the church (woops). I have no problem at all with polygamy, provided that all parties are adults and consenting. Of course Mormonism is famous for having underage girls wedded off to men three times their age with no chance to escape. And yes, I know, I know, you’re going to say that groups like the FLDS [the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - a splinter group that still lives like it’s the 1800s and still practices polygamy] aren’t really Mormons, but you need to understand that they would say the same thing about you too. “Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it wrong.” And just because you do believe in it doesn’t make it right. No matter how badly you want it to be real, there still aren’t talking snakes, parting seas, resurrections, or people who can divine the location of treasure by looking at plates in a hat.

“You need to get a life, rather than try to beat up people on their beliefs.” This is a total cop-out, and an indication that you don’t actually have an argument. Because I’m able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, and am vocal about how your religion is a fantasy, you need to believe that I don’t “have a life” so that you can ignore my arguments. Since I don’t believe in fairy tales, I think that means I have more of a life than religious folk. “You're childish and an idiot.” The insults keep getting more humorous for me, especially considering their source. You believe in absolutely absurd things (you get to be god of your own planet, talking donkeys, etc.) [Mormons believe that the most righteous followers of the religion will start their own universe and be its God - they don't mention at all why they don't then worship the God before this universe's God or how many Gods there are in this succession] yet somehow I’m the childish and idiotic one? Apparently accepting reality is childish.