The Trades - Fireproof

Lately we’ve been attempting to “trade” resources during our conversations with the religious, where we will agree to watch a religious movie or read a religious book and the other party will agree to watch an atheist video or read an atheist book. Unfortunately it hasn’t worked out very well, as we listen to the sermons or watch the documentaries, and then we find the other party dismayed that we weren’t immediately converted and they then renege on their end of the bargain (apparently lying isn’t a sin if you do it for Jesus).

The Christian themed movie “Fireproof” does fall into this category, although several members of our family have also been trying to get us to watch it since it first came out. After having now seen the film, I’m mildly offended by the fact that our Christian friends and family were so adamant that we needed to watch it. For anyone who isn’t aware of the movie, it’s a tale of a firefighter who is on the verge of divorce because he isn’t Christian. Nope, I’m not making that up. This movie actually tries to put forth the idea that any marriage not based on the Christian messiah Jesus is already in dire straights, the couple is already fighting like cats and dogs over inane issues, and the union is ultimately doomed to failure.

I have to wonder if that’s how our Christian relatives view our marriage? Nothing could be further from the truth. I’ve been blissfully married to my best friend for four years now (completely Jesus free), and I don’t see anything changing in that department, well, ever.

So onto the film itself, which combines three things I greatly do not enjoy – Kirk Cameron, Christianity, and commercials. What’s that you say? Commercials? Yes, this movie is a 122 minute commercial for the book “The Love Dare.” I’ve read conflicting reports online of whether the movie or the book came first, but since both directly quote the other, it doesn’t really matter. Both are nothing more than marketing tools to get the Christian demographic to shell out the cash for the other. “Fireproof” is essentially the Christian equivalent of a Pokémon movie, as it exists to prompt people to buy other products.

We actually skimmed through “The Love Dare” the other day prior to watching the movie to see what it was all about. The book consists primarily of common sense (and outright no-brainer) tips about not being mean to your spouse and trying to have sex regularly. What baffles me is that there are people who haven’t figured that stuff out yet. Then there are a couple of instances where they bring up Jesus and dare you to pray for your spouse on certain days.

On to Kirk Cameron, another of my least favorite things in life. For anyone not familiar with Kirk, he was on the TV show “Growing Pains,” and is now involved in several Christian ministries with buxom buddy Ray Comfort. For some back story on Comfort, I had a blog about his appearance on Pat Robertson’s show a month or so back that can be found here.

Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort decided to have a fun publicity stunt in which they gave away copies of Darwin’s “Origin of Species,” but they chopped out four chapters and added a 50 page introduction. This intro attempted to equate evolution with the Holocaust (never mind the fact that Hitler was a Christian) and tried to debunk modern biology. Here’s the original video announcing the “special edition” release, in all its mind-numbing glory:



I could respond to each point and explain how absurd the whole thing is, but this lady already did it pretty damn amazingly:



To help you further understand Kirk Cameron, here’s a wonderful clip of him saying something that no one should ever say at any point in time:



Kirk claims he was a “hardened atheist” before accepting the love of Jesus. I’d like to take this opportunity to point out he converted to Christianity at the age of 17, so he wasn’t a “hardened” anything yet (unless you want to count being a “hardened masturbator” as something worth mentioning).

One last little nugget of fun about Kirk, and this one directly pertaining to the movie! In another fun publicity stunt, Kirk refused to kiss the actress portraying his wife in the movie, as he feels he can only kiss his real-life spouse. For the final scene they brought in Kirk’s real wife and shot in silhouette so you couldn’t tell the difference. Apparently he doesn’t understand what is involved in the acting profession. If Kirk doesn’t want to kiss women other than this wife, then he needs to find a job that doesn’t include pretending to be someone else’s husband for long stretches of time. I hear McDonalds is hiring, and they don’t make you kiss anybody.

So now that that’s all out of the way, let’s get onto the movie itself. Actually, scratch that. Before watching this movie, go watch any random episode of “Rescue Me” first. OK, now that you’ve seen an actually compelling firefighter drama, now let’s move on.

The first thing you’ll notice is the absurd number of studios involved in this movie. Affirm films, Provident films, Carmel Entertainment, Sherwood Pictures, and Samuel Goldwyn films all have their hands in this pot. And somehow, it was still a low budget and poorly acted B-movie.

Actually, calling it “poorly acted” is giving it too much credit. The acting was actively distracting in how bad it was. Wooden dialogue delivered in a stilted monotone is the order of the day, for pretty much every character. It was unfortunately obvious that the writers were going out of their way to present a squeaky-clean and church friendly movie, as the firefighters in tense situations never once curse or talk about sex or make off color jokes or do anything else that real people do. We both had a wonderful belly laugh at the unintentional humor of one character proclaiming someone was going to get a “karate chop sandwich!” All of the various characters also always say exactly what they are thinking internally, instead of letting the character’s actions speak.

Another one of the unintentionally humorous moments is worth a special mention. As Kirk Cameron is rescuing a kid from a fire, he realizes it’s really hot in the conflagration, so clearly the best course of action is to TAKE OFF HIS FIRE RETARDENT COAT and throw it to the side. We were in stitches when the exact next scene is of Kirk in the hospital being treated for burns on his arms.

The bulk of the movie shows off how terrible the main couple’s marriage is because of their lack of Christianity, and how Kirk gets religion and suddenly starts being a perfect husband. The abrupt and out-of-character transition from douche bag to perfect Christian man is honestly on par with the bungled Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader transformation in Episode 3.

The source of the writing is always painfully apparent throughout the movie. The “fights” the main couple has aren’t real fights, they are caricatures of fights, like something a pastor would tell a congregation to get a point across. Compelling dramas (say for instance, “Rescue Me”) have fights that show character flaws and development. Here it is just a lame gimmick to get across the point that they don’t get along without religion.

Like in several religious movies we’ve seen, there is a disturbing undercurrent of sexism to the characters. All throughout “Fireproof” we are shown how the women are wrong, we need to shut up the women, the women need to submit and do what their husbands say, the women can only be what their husband’s make them into, etc.

Granted, it’s not as outright appalling as the 2008 film adaptation of Ted Dekker’s “House,” but it’s still pretty bad. For anyone who hasn’t seen that Christian take on horror movies, it actually explicitly says that a woman goes to hell for the sin of having been raped. Please go back and re-read that sentence so that sinks in. Apparently *being raped* is somehow a woman’s fault and puts an eternal stain on her soul that makes her worthy of being tormented for all time. I can’t express my distaste for that movie enough.

Back to “Fireproof,” there is an extended scene where Kirk’s dad tells Kirk he is going to hell for not meeting God’s standard and then explains the Christian salvation plan. At this point we found ourselves wondering who the audience for this movie was supposed to be. Since its mostly likely Christians who are going to see the movie, they don’t need to hear the story yet again. Any people of different religions or atheists are just going to chuckle through the scene, so it’s not really clear what they are trying to achieve with it. It also says something about the Christian mentality that they can’t keep (what they see as) truth out of fictional accounts, as the two are all jumbled up for the religious.

The scene does feature another annoying reminder of the idea the movie presents though, when Kirk’s dad says “You can’t love her because you can’t give what you don’t have.” He’s saying that husbands can’t love their wives if they don’t first love the Christian God, which is pretty ridiculous. Apparently these people aren’t aware of the Christian divorce rate, or that people who aren’t Christians frequently have successful relationships?

After converting to Christianity, Kirk decides to kick his “addiction” to pornography. For some terrifying reason he feels the best way to do this is to smash apart his computer and monitor with a baseball bat. At this point we are sympathizing with his divorce seeking wife, as clearly this man is violent and unable to handle issues in any sort of healthy manner. Apparently he didn’t think through this “solution” to the problem – what’s he going to do when he needs his computer for something else? Never mind the fact that there’s nothing wrong with pornography (Megan and I both watch it, and you’ll note our marriage is pretty damn kick ass), and it’s been shown time and again that masturbation is good for you. Even the extremely Christian Fox News agrees on that point, but since Fox isn’t exactly a valid resource you can also check out this article or this article or about a thousand others.

During the scene where Kirk has his big conversion moment, his dad takes him for a walk in their backyard, where he has a massive wooden cross erected. I’ve always thought this was a pretty sick practice. Do Christians not understand that the cross was a means of execution, and a particularly grisly one? Would you put up a vintage electric chair or gas chamber in your back yard? If Jesus had sacrificed himself with a grenade, would you wear a grenade necklace? It also says something about the mentality of the Christian deity, as he can’t ever come up with a better solution to problems than “human sacrifice.”

So, despite the assurances of Christians that watching “Fireproof” would give us a heart to love God, I have found that post-Fireproof I still lack a heart-on for Jesus. Oh well, there’s still plenty more religious propaganda coming our way!

The Craziest Day

Today was just a deluge of crazy, and the weird part was the rapid succession of out-there events. We started off with our standard morning ritual of heading to Hastings for coffee. As we’re walking over to the roleplaying section to check for new releases, we notice two elderly men are having a discussion in the chairs by the book shelves. As soon as we hear what they are discussing, we immediately hide behind the nearest shelf to eavesdrop without detection.

These two men, who are easily in their late 60’s or 70’s, are discussing, in great detail, their sexual prowess. One man says to the other that his latest conquest described him as the “best she’s ever had” and then confides that nearly all the women he’s been with have made the same remark. He then proceeds to explain that it’s not how he manipulates the sex organs, it’s the mind games he plays to increase their eroticism. Remaining silent was getting increasingly difficult. After a few more wonderful pearls of sex wisdom, we decided to leave before we couldn’t hold back the laughter any longer.

Thinking that would be the most interesting part of our day, we got in the car to head towards Albertson’s to check their seafood prices for an upcoming food blog. A few blocks away we come to stop at a red light next to a hotel. A woman in a red truck in the hotel’s parking lot suddenly starts going in reverse at a very high speed, and I think to myself “What is she doing? She’s going to run straight into that wall…”

*SMASH*

The woman then speeds forward and looks like she’s about to ram into the other end of the hotel, when the employees all come running out screaming. It’s then we notice there’s a second occupant in the truck – and the two are actively involved in physical combat with one another. They take a break from beating each other to lean out the window and start yelling at the hotel employees, as though they had done something wrong. The woman eventually realizes the hotel folks are taking down her license plate number and calling the cops, so she starts flipping out – but can’t leave because we are all stopped at this light and blocking her way out.

The green light comes around, and we’re gone. Wow, we think, nothing crazier than this could happen today. Yeah, we were wrong.

After Albertsons we head to Smiths to compare prices. On the way out we see Megan’s grandfather heading in. It should be noted I don’t care for this man, as he’s hated me from day one and never pretended otherwise. He’s also Mormon, and believes in crazy things like magic underwear that protect the wearer from fire and bullets. We had some polite conversation about shopping and Megan leans in to hug him and says “Well, see you later Grandpa!” But no, we aren’t getting out that easy.

He decides he needs to ask us about a “doctor” he recommended for Jacob (for anyone not aware, Megan’s younger brother has Fibromyalgia and Ehler’s Danlos Syndrome and so far we haven’t found a treatment that’s given a significant improvement). Megan spent some time talking to this person Grandpa recommended and a significant amount of time researching the claims behind his “treatments.” This “doctor” uses a machine very like the E-Meter from Scientology and a large portion of his regiment involves praying for the patient. Obviously this is nonsense and a waste of our time, as we’re actually interested in seeing Jacob get better.

Megan politely tried to explain that what this person was offering wasn’t a real treatment, but Grandpa couldn’t let it go. He decided he needed to convince us that these homeopathic and faith based “healing” procedures are in fact real. He brought up a homeopathic practitioner that several of the family members had seen in the past. It should be noted that this person once told Megan’s father to inject coffee into his anus to cure worms – which sent him into shock when he used instant coffee crystals and the caffeine went instantly into his blood stream through the walls of his bowels.

Grandpa informed us this woman had a “gift” that allowed her to automatically tell what was wrong with a person just by touching them. I responded that psychic powers aren’t real, and that what he was describing was quite silly. He didn’t appreciate the term “psychic,” and again proclaimed that it was a “gift.” When we asked where this “gift” came from, and how it differed from being psychic, he ignored us and moved on.

As Grandpa was regaling us with tales of this woman’s healing prowess, he off-handedly remarked that she had cured cancer without any sort of modern medicine. Megan and I both immediately stopped him and went “Woah there, rewind, you can’t just make a claim like that without evidence to back it up. If this woman can cure CANCER without modern medicine, why isn’t this information being spread across the world and shouted from the roof tops?”

He immediately got very miffed and let us know that the evidence was the woman supposedly cured of her cancer. Megan tried to explain that his personal anecdote of someone being miraculously healed isn’t evidence, as we had no way of verifying his claim. She explained that before we would swallow this extraordinary claim, a medical doctor would need to confirm the woman had cancer and had never had any sort of chemotherapy or normal cancer treatment. This doctor would then need to confirm the cancer was cured after using the homeopathic remedy, and then a follow up would need to occur months later to ensure it was still gone.

When asked for this evidence, Grandpa became very agitated and began yelling that we are closed minded. I asked him “Ok then, so would you believe me without needing evidence if I told you I can fling magic fireballs and have the ability to fly?” He immediately shouted “Of course not, because that’s obviously a lie!” When I stated “Exactly!” he decided he’d had enough and began walking away while yelling back at us that he doesn’t need evidence, as belief is all that’s required for him.

Knowing that the religious people in the world feel this way is one thing, but literally hearing a grown man shout the words “I believe and that’s enough, I don’t need evidence” was honestly rather horrifying. He is willing to use logic and reason to determine my claims of fireball flinging were clearly nonsense, but he’s completely unwilling to use those same faculties and critically examine his own supernatural Mormon beliefs or the claims of charlatans pretending to be healers.

So we’re chuckling as he storms off and we head to the car, marveling at how this day can’t possibly get any weirder. Wrong again.

I turn on the car, and we are immediately hit with a massively unhealthy sound that makes me worry my car is about to explode. Just a month ago we had the car in the shop during our fourth anniversary, which led to some very unexpected and fun activities we hadn’t planned out.

I turn off the car, not wanting to cause permanent damage. To round out the weirdness of the day – the car keeps running. Nope, not kidding, I’m holding the key in my hand, staring at it dumbfounded, as my car is still running and making a terrible noise. Well, if it’s going to run no matter what I do, I figure we might as well take it to the repair shop instead of paying for a tow. I turn the ignition over again just for good measure and we head off.

Long story short, the starter that was replaced last month had some issue that needed to be fixed, which prevented the car from completely turning off. Since it was still under warranty – free repair! We were without the car for a few hours, but that’s no biggy. As our anniversary taught us, unexpected walking adventures are kind of the best. What a crazy fucking day. But in the end, it was kind of awesome and now I have a great story to tell.

So in conclusion, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank Zeus for fixing my vehicle, as he was so clearly involved somehow and deserves the praise more than the mechanics themselves. All praise to Zeus!

Sorcerers and Whoremongers!

This particular segment in the "Conversations with the Religious" series is actually way out of chronological order, and I'm pushing aside a ton of my back log to post it now. However I thought it was prudent, as the poster of the original comment that started the discussion recently deleted the entire thread so no one can see it. Given that, I figured I should put it up now.

We've actually been having a long series of discussions with two of the people in this one, so there's some interesting issues that should be explained first. "DD" is a family friend who decided to make an attempt to convert Megan and myself over a social networking site. The person affectionately referred to as "120man" (you'll find out why on later posts) decided to jump into some of them, and then also added us as friends on that particular site. This individual has a habit of frequently contradicting things previously stated (as you'll see in many future posts), and we've even noticed that other Christians come on to attack 120man's nonsense, which of course is humorous to no end to the heathens.

This particular post came about because 120man claims Jesus was never afraid, and Megan couldn't resist pointing out that Luke 22 very clearly says he was in anguish over that whole upcoming unpleasant crucifixion (as God apparently can't come up with a better solution than "human sacrifice" to any given problem).

Both of these particular posters have frequently decided that any aspect or Christianity they don't like is "man made doctrine" and not part of the truth (Which their particular denomination has of course, while the others do not - this is especially humorous here, as the things these individuals say during these discussions would seem to indicate they are of different denominations). That's why you'll see Megan mention how something is "man made doctrine," as a poke at their nonsense and a taste of their own medicine.

The real goods show up towards the end, when someone compares us to "sorcerers and whoremongers" and decides that the best course of action to convince us to join a religious group is to threaten us with eternal hellfire. Some people just don't think these things through. As with the last post, I've added in several links directly to specific verses or issues that are discussed.

We again see the same deflections brought up that seem to happen in every conversation with new religious folks now. Watch as people who have never spoken with us before decide that the arguments we are using aren't really what we mean, and that the real reason we don't believe in their particular religion is because of some secret internal torment.

Each person gets a color like brown or red to make it easier to identify who is speaking and who is being quoted. Here we go:

120Man
I didn't see Jesus doing much for himself, he ate and drank... He served... He healed... I never have seen a verse where He worried or was afraid. He suffered for others... Arrogance is living for anything Jesus didn't live for.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Apparently you've forgotten about Luke 22:39-44. Read your own holy book.

RF
Arrogance is exhaulting ones self above what God has made or called one to be... The teaching of false doctrine is often a result of arrogance...

DD
Jesus wasn't worried or afraid in Luke 22. He was in anguish, as verse 44 says, and suffering because of the world's sin that He had to bear, hence the sweating of blood.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DD,

"He was in anguish, as verse 44 says, and suffering because of the world's sin that He had to bear, hence the sweating of blood."

The passage doesn't say that Jesus was in anguish because he was feeling the weight of the world's sin. That's man-made doctrine that someone has told to you. Read what the passage actually says: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (Luke 22:42) It goes on to say, "And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." (Luke 22:44) If you read what the passage actually says it sounds like Jesus wasn't really looking forward to his upcoming role in a grisly human sacrifice.

RF
Megan it sounds like your last sentence is agreeing with DD's last sentence, but you seem to not understand that the cross was part of bearing the sins of the world...I would have to agree with the first sentence in your first comment, but the second sentence was a little uncalled for... I think 120Man's post is very understandable in the context he was using it in... @ 120Man, I was just adding to your comment on arrogance, as I like to spiritually define it, but not taking away from your description...

120Man
Maybe Jesus wasn't excited to leave the disciples yet. Its possible Jesus was asking about if it was time... He said " yet not my will, but yours be done." Jesus felt what we felt. He was tempted just like anyone else. He has feelings.

RF
Probably would be best to let Jesus answer that, some time during our eternity with him... It's more convenient for us to talk about what he has revealed to us, and not speculate on what he hasn't.... Might be a good idea to get back to subjects that cause edification and not speculation....

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
RF,

"Megan it sounds like your last sentence is agreeing with DD's last sentence"

Hmm, I see what you're trying to say here, but DD and I are coming to this argument from two totally different sides. DD is refusing to admit that the text of Luke 22 suggests that Jesus felt worry, fear, or at the very least apprehension, over what was to come. Suggesting that someone wouldn't feel worry or fear when they knew they were going to be brutally murdered is disingenuous.

Oh, and by the way, I'm debating this from a purely literary perspective. Jesus and god aren't real, so no, we won't have the opportunity to question them about any of the events that occurred in the Bible.

RF
Megan, the bible says; The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God....Guess this explains why you spend so much time reading, studying, debating, and even trying to teach, something you don't even believe to begin with??? A little confusing to say the least! The spirit that has deceived you believes there is a God, that's why it is using you to try and bring confusion and discord among brethren. Most Christians today would try and tickle your ears with scripture about love and grace, but since your so knowledgable in scripture, I won't waste my time. I'll just leave you with this; But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8) If you ever change your mind, just remember what the others have told you, and what you have read; about God's mercy and Grace....Then follow up with prayer, and repentance....

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Hi RF,

Since I've read the Bible cover-to-cover several times I'm familiar with it's many self-serving verses.

Compare your using the Bible to prove the Bible to this hypothetical example:

Me: I have an ancient book that says leprechauns are real and anyone who serves them faithfully will get to frolic with the king leprechaun in his own kingdom.

You: Prove it.

Me: Well, my ancient book about leprechauns says it's all true!

You: That's ridiculous!

Me: *gasp* My book says you'd say that! It says that anyone who doesn't believe in the glorious truth of the almighty king leprechaun will not get to share the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but will, in fact, have a runny nose for all eternity!

"The spirit that has deceived you believes there is a God, that's why it is using you to try and bring confusion and discord among brethren."

I've never been contacted by the supernatural. So no, there's no spirit-related deception (or deception of any kind for that matter) going on here.

"Most Christians today would try and tickle your ears with scripture about love and grace, but since your so knowledgable in scripture, I won't waste my time."

Aww shucks, thanks for the complement!

"I'll just leave you with this; But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)"

Well, gee, thanks for spouting that little pearl of nonsense at me. Threatening me with a burning second death will DEFINITELY make me want to drink your Kool-Aid *sarcasm*! ;)

"If you ever change your mind, just remember what the others have told you, and what you have read; about God's mercy and Grace....Then follow up with prayer, and repentance...."

Believing what "others have told you" would be having faith in others, not god. Remembering what I've read also wouldn't help lead me to Christianity because of how many atrocities god committed in the Bible. I could never worship someone that immoral. ;)

Ty Gordon Arthur
‎"the bible says; The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God"

Imagine that, your Bible says your Bible is right. It's not like every other religion on the planet feels the same way or anything.

"Guess this explains why you spend so much time reading, studying, debating, and even trying to teach, something you don't even believe to begin with?"

We get this in every discussion about religion ever, and it's getting so old. First off, we debate with religious people all stripes every day - not just your denomination and religion. We equally find any supernatural belief to be absurd, whether it be about magic or ghosts or unicorns or a talking snake and a zombie savior. We spend so much time debating this because religion is a blight upon our species. It causes people to try to take away each other's basic human rights, it causes people to strap on explosive vests and run into market places, it causes people to rationalize the edicts in the Bible regarding murder, rape, and slavery, and it actively impedes scientific and medical advancement.

"But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Well unfortunately we aren't sorcerers or whoremongers (although they both sound like a lot of fun!). But anyway, choosing to follow a set of rules out of fear of hell isn't a moral action - it's the definition of an abusive relationship.

RF
Funny how you guys can find all that knowledge in the world, but can't seem to find any faith at all, why don't you show up at church sunday, the kids will enjoy your leprechaun stories, and maybe you can find the faith that has been missing from your lives in the preachers sermon... Hope you both get saved, from the wrath that awaits those who mock God... It's my experience with unbelievers like yourselves, that as death seems to approach, the attitudes seem to change, I don't think there will be any difference as your time approaches, as it is with the others. The terrified look on their faces says it all, the weird thing is that the undertaker can't even change the look of fear, that seems to be on the faces of all the unbeleivers when they pass.... But I can already guess, that your arrogance is above admitting you are really seeking to know Jesus, now, but can't seem to understand how to find him, first you must realize that he is not the one that's lost; you are! Perhaps if you would repent and ask his forgiveness, He might grant you to have what you are desiring; his love, mercy, and grace. I've ran into your type before, and you are all the same; hurting and tormented inside, from experiences you have been through. To ashamed to turn around, because you have built such a reputation, of being rebellious, but hoping to find someone who can give you hope and proof that God exists, and he loves you, and can remove the burden of guilt and shame from your life, and that he can rid you of the spirits that torment your souls and cause you to rebel against him. I'm just the one who can lead you to him my friends, but I won't be debating, arguing, compromising or any thing else the devil would love for me to partake in, to do it. You either accept the offer, or move on and accept the outcome of your current choice. Just remember this; if Jesus is tugging at your heart, you better answer the call, it might just be your last opportunity to know him...

Ty Gordon Arthur
It's interesting how in nearly every conversation we have with the religious we see the exact same non-arguments, deflections, and weird assumptions. Well, let's get it on it. RF, your words are in quotes to streamline the discussion.

"why don't you show up at church sunday"

Megan and I both started from the Christian perspective and changed our minds in the face of facts. We were raised in religious homes, have read the Bible cover to cover on multiple occasions, and I even attended Christian school. I've been to Apostolic Pentecostal services and charismatic services and Baptist services and Mormon services and so on and so forth already.

"It's my experience with unbelievers like yourselves, that as death seems to approach, the attitudes seem to change"

You've pointed out here exactly why grown adults are willing to believe in absurd fairy tales like a talking snake and a zombie savior without any proof. No one wants to think that death is the end, and obviously it's much preferable to believe one lives forever in some sort of blissful heaven. Unfortunately, wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. I want to have super powers that let me fling fireballs and fly, but wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.

"But I can already guess, that your arrogance is above admitting you are really seeking to know Jesus, now, but can't seem to understand how to find him"

Let me help you out here - Jesus was hiding behind Curt Cobain's couch, but I hear now he's hanging out with Tori Amos. Seriously though, no, neither of us is seeking your God or his zombie son, as we don't believe either being exists. Are you really seeking Zeus right now, but your arrogance is too great to admit it, and you just can't seem to understand how to find him?

"He might grant you to have what you are desiring; his love, mercy, and grace."

In no way do I desire "grace" from a deity whose holy book includes rules on stoning children to death, proper slave ownership, and commands to murder witches and steal virgins.

"I've ran into your type before, and you are all the same; hurting and tormented inside, from experiences you have been through. To ashamed to turn around, because you have built such a reputation, of being rebellious, but hoping to find someone who can give you hope and proof that God exists, and he loves you, and can remove the burden of guilt and shame from your life, and that he can rid you of the spirits that torment your souls and cause you to rebel against him."

This is such a weird deflection, and we run into it nearly every time. It's rather odd that you, who don't know either Megan or myself at all, would immediately assume we are "hurting and tormented inside." I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no, no such hurt or torment exists. Megan and I actually have amazingly wonderful lives (ask 120Man how well it worked for him when he demanded to know how "blessed" we are). We are both more than willing to tell you the real reasons we are atheists, so you don't need to make up fake reasons for us.

We are atheists because we can distinguish fantasy from reality. We are atheists because religion is a social disorder that causes more problems than it solves. We are atheists because the "holy books" of the world are vile, twisted, and morally bankrupt pieces of filth.

Now I want you to think about the fact that you decided we are hurt and tormented inside by past experiences, and that's why we are atheists. You RF, are an atheist in regards to the deity Zeus. Should I then infer that you are hurt and tormented inside due to your experiences with Zeus's followers, and that's why you stubbornly refuse to follow him, even though you know he's real? How about the Islamic deity Allah? I'm going to assume that you don't believe in him either - does that mean you are really hurting inside and secretly want to be Muslim?

"You either accept the offer, or move on and accept the outcome of your current choice. Just remember this; if Jesus is tugging at your heart, you better answer the call, it might just be your last opportunity to know him..."

Again, your cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own dad isn't tugging at anyone's heart, as he isn't real. And for the record, we reject the offer, from your man-made deity and any other man-made deity you'd care to name.

"I'm just the one who can lead you to him my friends,"

That's interesting, because maybe I'm just the one to lead you out of the darkness of blind faith and into the light of reality. There's a whole wonderful world out here were you don't have to be terrified of supernatural entities or go through the mental gymnastics required to believe in them. Think about it.

Biblical Immorality

Here we are with another round of "Conversations with the Religious" from my ever-growing back log. This one was spawned because Megan noticed a curious thing on Facebook. Many of our Christian friends and relatives post primarily Bible verses as their status updates, yet they never seem to post any of the offensive or evil verses in that vile book. To rectify the oversight, Megan began posting one extremely offensive Bible verse a day as her status.

As you would imagine, this didn't result in any Christians leaving comments like "Amen sister!" Instead, they came on to explain why the verses didn't mean what they say, or try to rationalize why they aren't as outright evil as they sound. I've always loved that little inconsistency in religious folk. Talk about the Christian deity's grace or forgiveness or power, and you get an "Amen!" Talk about how he commanded parents to stone rebellious children to death, and you get an altogether different response.

Throughout our many conversations with religious people, Megan and I both have begun to see recurring patterns in how the religious respond to arguments. You'll see here the mental gymnastics required to believe that the Christian deity never changes, even though he changed his mind on most of the Old Testament laws. You'll see the glory of Pascal's Wager and how it so spectacularly blows up in the face of anyone who uses it. One of the worst aspects of religion again rears it's ugly head - which is people being willing to rationalize horrendous actions in order to continue believing their particular deity is still good and just. Of course, the common tactic of simply ignoring every argument presented continues its inglorious run from previous blogs as well.

Finally, you'll also see a rather annoying trend that continues in nearly every discussion we have these days - that of Christians deciding that they need to invent reasons why we aren't religious that have nothing to do with the arguments we are currently presenting. Yes, that's right, apparently when we point out the inconsistencies in people's beliefs about their deities, or explain logically why the supernatural isn't real, or point out the severe immorality in religion - none of that is actually what we mean at all. We are both more than happy to explain why we feel religion of all stripes is absurd, but for some reason Christians feel the need to come up with some other explanation to rationalize why we disregard the things they see as so obviously true.

As with the other articles in this line, each person who took part in the discussion gets a color such as green or blue, and most of the posters are referred to by a pseudonym. Feel free to leave your own thoughts on anyone's arguments in the comments! I've also peppered in a few links in my posts towards the bottom for further reading on certain subjects. Here we go:


Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." --Exodus 21:20-21

Biblical morality at its finest! ;)

Ty Gordon Arthur

But Megan, when they save "slave" they really mean "Gentile bond servant!" Because it's totally OK to strike your bond servant with a rod as long as he's not Jewish...

It's verses like these that should make people run full speed in the opposite direction of religion. I'd never use a book filled with "wisdom" such as this as my moral compass.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

I'm just ashamed that I used the "morals" from this despicable book to govern the first 22 to 23 years of my life. :(

JF

it makes you really think doesn't it

SD

Hey, remember this one: "BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" Hahahahaha....

KR

This verse was in the Old Testament, the old law. We no longer live under the old law of the Old Testament. We live by the grace of Jesus. Read Colossians 2:6-15.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Thanks for commenting KR, It's great to get alternate points of view.

However, it seems you may not have fully thought through the ramifications of this verse. Regardless of the fact that the biblical deity changed his mind about slavery (which, of course, contradicts his claim that he is the same "yesterday as today as tomorrow"), you still have to deal with the fact that there was a point in time in which he condoned slavery, and beating slaves. How do you morally justify following a deity who ever condoned slavery? Slavery is a morally bankrupt and abhorrent practice that is never acceptable, regardless of the time frame or culture one lives in.

You've also opened a pretty big can of worms by stating we are no longer under the law of the Old Testament. Does this mean you no longer intend on following the ten commandments or the verse about homosexuality being an abomination? Moreover, if we no longer have to follow the Old Testament, and since it's clearly such a big stumbling block for atheists such as myself and Megan anyway, why keep it in the Bible at all?

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, thanks for commenting! I always appreciate feedback and am especially interested on your opinion because your dad is a minister and I know you and your husband are actively involved in a ministry.

As Ty mentioned, many Christians are quick to say that because we are "under grace" we are no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament. Those same Christians will then turn around and use those "laws" to oppress gays, women, etc. If we really are done with the Old Testament, it seems that we should also be able to let go of the Biblical view of how the world was created in favor of scientific explanations such as evolution.

JF, yes, this verse should definitely inspire people to reexamine their beliefs. Stay tuned over the next few days for more thought-inspiring verses.

SD: I hadn't thought about "basic instructions before leaving earth" in FOREVER! Ah, just one more cute little catch-phrasey saying that Christians think proves their point! And SD, don't think I've forgotten that time we took you to church and you *almost* went to the front to get "saved." Good for you for standing your ground and not "drinking the Kool-Aid"!

SD

Yeah that circus still haunts me :)

KR

The Bible never says that God condoned the slavery that was taking place. There is also murder in the scriptures but it does not mean that it is condoned. Jesus Christ IS the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. He didn't condone it then or now.

Jesus came to do away with the old law. I am a New Testament Christian. Of course I still follow the Ten Commandments as they are presented in the New Testament. Homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament. Read Romans 1:26,27. He does not condone homosexuality, but he offers forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

There is great purpose for the Old Testament today. It's our guide that leads us to Christ. Please read Galatians 3:24-25. This explains it. The Old Testament is filled with prophecy that points us to Christ and those prophecies have been or will be fulfilled in Christ.

Everyone either believes this or they don't. I choose to believe and have hope.

Megan-the Old Testament in its entirety is not to be forgotten. What the Bible says in the scriptures is that the old laws were nailed to the cross. The Old Testament is still God's Word. It's not done away with, we are just no longer under the laws of the OT.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Thanks for keeping the conversation going KR!

Unfortunately, this verse we are discussing is very much something that the biblical deity condones. I'm not sure how you are coming up with the idea that the phrase ""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." isn't a law that came from the biblical deity. It's a command from him, written by men who were "divinely inspired" (or more specifically in the context of the Biblical story, it was Moses explaining the laws to his people after coming down off the mountain).

What about this verse makes you think God wasn't happy with it? Nowhere does it then say "Oh, but did we mention that God didn't like that this was happening?" In fact I think that actually further proves my point - why didn't God say in his ten commandments "Slavery is wrong. Period."?

Your analogy to murders occurring in the bible only quasi-applies (and not in a way that helps your argument). Yes, there are murders and battles that occur, but the ones you are referring to are part of a description of events or parable and not a law being shared by God, which this verse very much is. There are instances however where God does command people to go out and murder, which is another thing about the biblical deity that should give you pause (not to mention all his own killing sprees).

It doesn't really get any more clear than "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live." I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in a God who ever expected people to murder all the witches they come across, even if he later changed his mind.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, the fact that we once were under the Old Testament law, but now aren't seems to be a change in and of itself, directly contradicting Hebrews 13:8 ("Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever"), Malachi 3:6 (For I am the Lord, I do not change) and others.

So, when this big New Testament change supposedly happened, did all the prophets get a memo? I see that going a little something like this...

God: "Hey there Paul, not sure if you noticed or not (maybe you didn't get my last memo), but we're no longer doing that nasty Old-Testament-law business."

Paul: "What, we're not?" *blink, blink*

God: "Yeah...uh, so you can probably lay off gays and women now, you know, 'saved' under the whole 'grace' thing."

Paul: "But...but...I already published my epistles."

God: "Really? Huh. Well, lets just leave it. I mean, hating gays and women was one of my favorite things from the Old Testament anyway."

KR

God wasn't happy with it because God does NOT like any sin. Where does the Bible say that God likes it? Sin is of Satan, not God. Would you be willing to give me some more scripture references to back your arguments up? I'm not sure that I understand about the witches. Could you explain that?

Here is something on slavery:

Forced slavery, as the Bible makes clear, is an EVIL act. It's been going on since strong people found that others are weak, and it's still common today. Anyone enslaving someone in this way was to be put to death.

Indentured(written contract) servitude, on the other hand, is generally good. It allowed people with little to work for those with much. Those with plenty would provide for the poor and protect them. The word "slavery" doesn't really apply here, since those involved entered into a legal contract. That contract could be broken, renewed, or taken to court if things went badly.

There is NO regulation of enforced slavery in Scripture. If you're caught, you die. There IS regulation of indentured (written contract)servitude, to make sure that everyone is being treated fairly.

Michael

@KR God didn't call for and end to slavery, so at the very least he is complicit in the fact that is was used throughout the Jewish empire. Also, as for the New Testament, ever read Philemon? It was written to a Roman slave, who was basically told to suck it up and be the best slave he could be, because that would honor god.

Oh, one final note ... please don't claim to keep the ten commandments, because I'm pretty sure you don't keep the Sabbath.

Ty Gordon Arthur

KR: the Bible says that God likes it in the very verse we are discussing. Have you read it? I've already quoted it once, I don't think it's really necessary to do so again. This verse very specifically lays out the mandate for when someone should be punished for beating their slave, and when it's OK because the slave is their property. If you want to go through the mental gymnastics necessary to believe that Exodus 21:20-21 doesn't specifically show how your deity condones beating slaves (or "indentured servants"), then you still have to deal with the fact that this deity (being all knowing) must have known this slavery was going on (otherwise it wouldn't have been in the Bible), and yet for some reason he never once issues a decree stating he abhors the practice. This is especially important in this particular part of the Bible, since this is exactly when God is giving his laws to his followers.

Regardless of whether you want to believe that "slave" really meant "indentured servitude" (which is also not OK by the way), you can't get around the fact that the Bible still says its OK to beat them with a rod, as long as they live for at least a day or two afterwords. Why aren't you troubled by that? Indeed, why aren't you troubled by the fact that you have been reduced to rationalizing slavery in order to continue believing in your book of supernatural mumbo-jumbo? You said "Forced slavery, as the Bible makes clear, is an EVIL act." Ummm...you have read the Bible, right? I'm still not entirely convinced you've actually read the original verse that started this discussion. It's not like this is the only verse describing the protocol for slave ownership, and as Michael pointed out, it's not even limited to the Old Testament.

In regards to witches, Exodus 22:18 very plainly says "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live." It doesn't get any more clear than that. We'll ignore the fact that witchcraft isn't real for the moment and go on to the more pressing issue - why aren't you bothered by the fact that your God issued this edict? It's irrelevant that he then changed his mind in the new testament, you still have to deal with the fact that the edict ever existed at all. Murdering women, regardless of whether you think they have magic powers, is not acceptable. There are a host of other incredibly disturbing examples, such as Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which commands you to stone your children to death if they are rebellious.

I would recommend reading a book a little more thoroughly before coming to the conclusion it holds all the secrets of the universe and is going to be the basis of your morals.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, thanks for being a good sport and staying in the discussion.

Indentured servitude, as you describe it, would be fine. But the Bible passage I quoted makes it clear that this is not the happy, mutually beneficial arrangement that you're painting it to be.

Let's say I have a great housekeeper...we'll call her Lupe. I like her work so much that I ask Lupe to enter into a contract with me to be my housekeeper for a certain number of years. Lupe agrees: we're both happy. I have a great housekeeper, Lupe has steady work. That's fine. One day I come home from work and decide that I don't like the way that Lupe has been polishing the silver...so I grab a baseball bat (rod, or other blunt weapon) and beat Lupe to within an inch of her life. I don't kill her outright, but I injure her so badly that she dies a few days later of internal injuries sustained during the beating. If I were to do something like this I would be a terrible person, but I would also be following the Biblical guidelines for the treatment of slaves as outlined in Exodus 21:20-21. Do you still want to describe this scenario as one in which a servant is being "treated fairly"?

KR

Obviously you guys have really put a lot of thought into this. Probably because you have a lot of questions and deep down you know that there is someone much bigger than yourself out there. Romans 1:20 reminds us of the fact that: "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

I hope that one day your eyes are opened and that you will allow God's grace and peace into your life, but until you drop the cynicism and anger, you'll always struggle in life.

I will be dropping out of the conversation from now on, arguing certainly won't change my view, I've seen how God can bless a life, and it's obvious you won't be changing your views either.

I will leave you with one final thought, laying all of the 'issues' of the scriptures aside, think about this. When I die, if I'm wrong about the Lord, what do I have to lose? Absolutely nothing, I have a blessed life, wonderful family and friends and have a great system of moral values. And if I'm right, I've got Heaven to look forward to.

But when YOU die, if you're wrong, what do you have to lose? Everything.

My very best wishes to all of you. God loves you, even if the feeling isn't mutual.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Well I’m sorry to see you bow out so early KR, especially without answering any of my questions. On the off chance you continue reading or decide to respond again, I will still be responding to your last post. You may want to recall that the Bible says the Holy Spirit will always give you the right words to sway unbelievers, so perhaps you should keep trying until those words come?

I actually rather enjoy this segment of the conversation, because it’s where the religious person stops making any actual arguments or responding to any queries and starts using emotional calls instead. What’s great about this is that the religious person almost never considers how these emotion based “arguments” can immediately be turned back around on them, and prove absolutely nothing.

For example, you said “Obviously you guys have really put a lot of thought into this. Probably because you have a lot of questions and deep down you know that there is someone much bigger than yourself out there.” Since I’ve read the Bible cover to cover multiple times, and am very aware of the intricacies of the various Christian denominations, you need to have a backup option to explain why I’m not part of your religion. This is rather silly though, as clearly you would use an opposite argument if I weren’t informed about Christianity. You are trying to have it both ways here. Whether I know about Christianity or not you still wouldn’t accept the fact that I reject it. I absolutely do not know that there is “something much bigger than myself out there,” for if I did, would I then be arguing with you about it?

More importantly, this “argument” can be thrown right back at you. Say for instance that I told you Zeus (or Hecate or Poseidon or Allah or any other man-made deity) was the one true God, and Jesus was a false savior who can’t fill the Zeus-shaped hole in your heart. You would be completely justified in trying to explain to me that my God was nothing more than a mythological fairy tale, and that many of Zeus’s actions are suspect or outright immoral. Would you then be swayed to believe in Zeus in any way if I said to you “You know deep down that there is something much bigger and more powerful than Jesus out there. You know Zeus is real, you just refuse to believe in him for some reason.” Obviously you would not, so why would you think it would work on anyone else by swapping out the name of the deity with the particular man-made God you worship?

You also said “When I die, if I'm wrong about the Lord, what do I have to lose? Absolutely nothing, I have a blessed life, wonderful family and friends and have a great system of moral values. And if I'm right, I've got Heaven to look forward to. But when YOU die, if you're wrong, what do you have to lose? Everything.” This is an argument known as Pascal’s Wager, and it’s another that can immediately be thrown back at you. When I die, if I’m wrong about Allah and his prophet Mohammed, I lose absolutely nothing, and if I’m correct I have paradise to look forward to. But when YOU die, if you are wrong about this Jesus fellow, what do you have to lose? Everything. Are you in any way swayed to become Islamic because of that statement?

First of all, I deny outright that you lose nothing. You’ve wasted your life on a lie and spent your entire existence believing in a fairy tale. I also deny that you have a “great system of moral values.” You have yet to explain how you morally justify following a God who at one time condoned slavery, stoning children to death, and murdering witches. In fact you’ve basically ignored everything we’ve said and every Bible verse we’ve quoted.

Second, there is absolutely no reason to live a life based on a religion just because it *might* be true and there *might* be an afterlife and there *might* be a being deciding who goes to which kind of afterlife. Extraordinary claims (for instance – “A big invisible man in the sky wants you to telepathically affirm your allegiance to his zombie son because of the antics of a talking snake”) require extraordinary evidence. Since I have literally no evidence whatsoever to suggest that either the Christian or Islamic deities have any basis in reality, it would be very silly of me to live a life based on those fairy tales as “fire insurance” on the off chance one of them turns out to be real. Following a religion because you are afraid of the punishment of hell most definitely doesn’t give you any sort of moral high ground.

You are also ignoring the loss that occurs to society but continuing to let people use a set of bronze age superstitions as the basis for their world view. For eight years we had no federal funding for stem cell research, one of the most promising means of completely curing the scourge of diabetes, because of our president’s religious beliefs. Likewise, religion gives us all those wonderful things like suicide bombers, and Christians who shoot doctors, and a host of other truly terrible things that wouldn’t happen if people weren’t so concerned with which big invisible man in the sky is the “right” one. I’m most definitely gaining something by refusing to take part in this system, and the world as a whole loses something when people choose to believe in the supernatural with no evidence and take part in this absurdity.

You stated “I will be dropping out of the conversation from now on, arguing certainly won't change my view, I've seen how God can bless a life, and it's obvious you won't be changing your views either.” How precisely did God bless the lives of the indentured servants beaten to death? How did he bless the lives of the children stoned to death under his edicts? How did he bless the lives of the women burned to death because of superstitious beliefs in witchcraft? How does he bless the lives of the children raped by Catholic priests or the young girls married to men four times their age in polygamist Mormon splinter groups or the people in Africa dying in droves because priests insist that “condoms cause AIDS.”? These things are only possible because people are willing to cast aside logic and embrace the unfounded superstition of religion.

Oh and as a final parting shot - Zeus loves you, even if the feeling isn't mutual. I'll be praying you see his truth.

Planescape Campaign - "The Spiral Touch" Officially Kicks Off

Our new Planescape campaign "The Spiral Touch" finally kicked off on Saturday, and our group of players was introduced to the oddity and wonder of the planes. The party was broken up into three groups - an adventuring party from the prime material, an incorporeal ghost Guvner who is lawfully bound to attempt to fulfill the wishes of anyone holding his magic ring, and one blank slate character with no knowledge of his past or abilities.

The game started off with the group of primes on the world of Golarion from the Pathfinder campaign setting. Each member is a misfit or outcast in some way. Megan is playing a bariaur unaware of her planar heritage, Crystal is playing a human fighter who worships the dead god Aroden, and Matt is playing a menacing lizardfolk barbarian who has left his tribe behind. The group started the game as mercenaries hired by the people of Ustalav to investigate the whereabouts of the wizard who rules their land. It seems the wizard, and more importantly his tax collectors, haven't come down from his castle for quite some time, and the people need to know if their lord still resides in the manor.

I wanted to make this game a lot more immersive than others, so I spent a lot more time planning the descriptions of specific locations and objects, and also found music appropriate to the mood of any scene. While investigating the abandoned gothic castle I used music from the "Vampire Hunter D" anime movies, along with the "Midnight Syndicate" D&D album. To drive home the oddity of Planescape right away, I created a sort of mini-puzzle where the characters had to use a giant pulsating black brain and a quivering pile of black entrails instead of keys.

To make the game a little more interesting, I created a quest board that mimics the quest journal of a computer game. While investigating the castle, the group came up on their first sub-quest involving the ghost of a giant being bound to the castle. It wasn't long before the group discovered the apparent reason for the wizards disappearance - a portal to Avernus, the first layer of Baator (otherwise known as the Nine Hells). Recently arrived in the blasted landscape of hell, we switched over to Jacob's nameless character.

Originally I had planned to just read some text about how his character woke up and started to recognize his surroundings, but I needed to take it up a notch. I put together a Power Point presentation, using various odd fonts and colors, to make it a little more fun. Here's how Jacob's character came into being:












Over the course of the adventure, and throughout the entire campaign, we'll be cooperatively figuring out the statistics, class, abilities, and history of Jacob's character during each situation. Jacob's first reaction was to try to parley with the approaching fiend, so we may end up with a class other than fighter. As negotiations broke down he brought his new sword to bear - and discovered that it seems to have some strange properties. The nameless half elf ran to the end of the alley to discover he seemed to have some sort of portal key, as a portal sent him flying over to the market ward of Sigil near the brewery of the fey brothers Tim, Tam, and Tell.

We then switched to Glen's character, who has recently been bonded to a group of githzerai and tieflings who found his ring. Glen's character is only bound to assist the current owner of the ring however, so his first action was to possess one of the tiefling's bodies and begin harassing a passing vrock tanar'ri. After the messy devouring was over he returned to the other two, only to find they strangely didn't seem to mind the death of their companion, and oddly demanded to experience the most epic drunkenness ever imaginable. The group headed off to the brewery of Tim, Tam, and Tell to sample a new brew made from the essence of a dead chaos god, and much chaotic nonsense ensued. Glen's character soon figured out why the group was in such a hurry to get drunk, and didn't mind the death of their companion. A demodand showed up to reclaim the group, which had escaped from the prison plane of Carceri, and the creature had no compunctions about killing anyone else in the way. Comic mishaps occurred as the chaos brew had characters changing back and forth from dragon to human to kitten form throughout the battle.

We returned to our poor lost primes, trapped in Baator. After a swim through a river of blood, a meeting with a crazed witch named Mebbeth, the discovery of a new ally named Brink, and a trip to the talking pillar of skulls, the group finally discovered that the portal key to get to Sigil could be found in a nearby encampment of devils recently returned from a trek to the prime material.

This was one of my favorite segments of the adventure, as I got to come up with my own video game style quest in which the characters had to go back and forth between two parties attempting to get to the heart of a story. An amnizu devil and an eryines devil were both part of a group of baatezu sent to a prime world to corrupt the souls of a nation of dwarves. Both of the devils claim that they were ultimately responsible for the corruption of the great dwarven hero Teverak, and neither is willing to concede the point. Who corrupted the soul is important to the devils, as it is a potent enough soul that however wins the contest gets to be promoted in the ranks of devil kind. The party had to hear each side's reasons for why they feel they corrupted the soul, and even got a quick crash course in signing contracts with devils and taking bribes. Eventually they sided with the eryines, who didn't lay the initial groundwork for the dwarf hero's damnation, but did the most direct action to bring about the soul's eventual transformation to the lawful evil alignment. The party was gifted with the location of a portal and the portal key to take them to Sigil.

The group was also given a bonus gift for siding with the eryines - a fragile devil horn curiously named "Deal Breaker." This is one of my favorite aspects of putting together this campaign. I've spent a good deal of time coming up with strange items and giving them interesting backgrounds. "Deal Breaker" is a segment of horn from the baatezu justice Ashkult, who hears arguments from souls who feel they shouldn't have ended up in hell after they died. When crumbled over a weapon, Deal Breaker makes the item into a +5 magic weapon that deals an extra 2d6 hellfire damage, however the weapon will shatter into a million pieces after striking one successful blow.

There's more Planescape insanity in the coming weeks as our campaign progresses!

Planescape Campaign - The Spiral Touch Begins

Hey there readers! There are plenty more "Conversations with the Religious" coming up, but I'm taking a little break from those to post about our current D&D campaign, which is taking place in the Planescape setting. Despite the fact that I feel Planescape: Torment is, bar none, the greatest video game of all time and no game has ever eve come close to surpassing it, I haven't actually run a Planescape campaign before. I've had a background story and a set of characters brewing in my head for going on around three years now, and jotting down ideas every now and again. The time has finally come to unleash the beast and get this thing going.

We usually play Pathfinder, and were a little over halfway through the "Curse of the Crimson Throne" adventure path when we decided to was time for a change of pace. We did a one-off session of Angel (great D10 system by the way - unlike with World of Darkness you only ever have to roll a single D10 in any situation) and then this week we rolled up characters for the new Planescape campaign, titled "The Spiral Touch."

The group is broken up into three parts. The first part consists of three outcast characters all currently residing on Golarion, the Pathfinder campaign world. Matt wanted to do some a little different than normal, so he went with a lizardfolk barbarian whose intelligence and world view put him at odds with his swamp tribe. Crystal decided to ditch the standard magic user she plays and go with a big burly warrior woman who worships the dead god Aroden, despite his recently deceased status. Megan had been reading through the Planescape Player's Guide to the Planes and liked the idea of playing a bauriar. All of the characters in this group are clueless primes though, so this posed a bit of a problem. We decided her parents, bauriar from the plane of Ysgard, fled to the prime material plane for an unknown reason and never revealed the dark of the planes to her. Most people don't realize she isn't a centaur, and those who know better haven't mentioned anything yet.

The next segment of the party consists only of Glen, who is playing an incorporeal ghost wizard who belongs to the Fraternity of Order faction. Glen's familiar also happens to be his spell book - one of the floating shrunken heads who served King Kalak in the Dark Sun setting and has now been enchanted to act as a mimir (as a side note, Wizards of the Coast is going to release a new edition of Dark Sun with the fourth edition rules soon. I'm not a fourth edition fan but I'll probably get the books just to see what they do with such an awesome setting). The two despise each other, which makes getting information an interesting proposition. Glen is bound the clueless primes in a way that hasn't been revealed yet.

The final segment is composed solely of Jacob, who is currently a blank slate. Jacob wakes up in a back alley of the hive with no memory of who or where he is. Since belief defines reality on the planes, we'll be discovering his class, race, name, and abilities during game play. I'll ask questions like "You currently are holding a sword, do you know how to use it?" or "Are you any good at sneaking past these guards?" or "do these Dustmen know you?" to determine his history and skill set.

I wanted to make the campaign a little more like a video game in style, so I set up a quest board that lists major quests, along with any sub-quests that my be discovered along the way. Each quest will be marked off when it's completed and the party will be rewarded extra experience.


Since most of the players are completely new to Planescape, I also set up a board called "The Chant" where I have all the Planescape lingo written in pencil. When the party hears any Planescape-ism, I'll write it out in black marker and include a brief definition. This way the group of players learn about Planescape as their characters do.

I've also got another board setup that will eventually show all the planes and special locations the characters visit. I printed off a picture of the planar cosmology and cut it up into pieces. Each time the group reaches a new location I'll paste that segment of the picture on the board, and the map will slowly reveal itself. As with our other campaigns, I also have a board solely for pictures of NPCs and monsters the characters meet. I scan any images I need from the books and then print them off on a smaller scale. When a new character is introduced, their picture goes up on the board along with a name and brief description.



I've been spending a good deal of time coming up with odd characters and items to fit the tone of the planes. Rather than having the characters find standard loot, I really wanted to evoke the off beat feel of Planescape: Torment, so I've been coming up with my own unique items and then I'll pick any of them as items the party finds as necessary. For example, rather than finding a scroll containing the "Vilquar's Eye" spell, the group will instead find a sticky eye that looks like it's seen better days, and its pupil frantically follows any movement. Touching the eye to one of the character's eyes fills that character's head with the knowledge of the spell.

One of the first characters the group will interact with on the planes is Brink of Oblivion, a planar human who worships both the lawful evil deity Hextor and the lawful good deity Heironeous equally, seeing both as incomplete halves to a greater whole. This of course makes him a heretic to the members of both religions, who all would love to see his name penned in the dead book.

To get the feel of Planescape just right I'm also using the music files from Planescape: Torment in the appropriate situations. Luckily all the tracks are actually available online. I recommend them even to people who aren't RPG fans, as these tracks aren't just good for role playing atmosphere, they are just plain good music. You can get most of them here. I'm personally fond of the "Ravel's Maze" track.

Oh yeah, and I swapped out two of the sides on my spinning Dungeons and Dragons display today. I wanted to go a little old school, so the sides now consist of Middle Earth Role Playing, Paranoia, Dark Sun, and Earthdawn. I absolutely adore that Lord of the Rings Adventure Game boxed set in the top spot. It's long, long out of print now, but among the best Lord of the Rings material ever released. It comes with a huge number of paper miniatures, large maps, character backgrounds, a full adventure, and super simple rules that only use 2d6 for everything. Two follow up adventures were released in paperback (you can see one of them in the bottom shelf), but then the line got dropped before the company I.C.E. could release the final two. The newer Lord of the Rings RPG stuff is all based on the movies and uses images from the films instead of original art. While its still fun stuff, it doesn't come close to catching the flavor and feel of the older material.