Biblical Immorality

Here we are with another round of "Conversations with the Religious" from my ever-growing back log. This one was spawned because Megan noticed a curious thing on Facebook. Many of our Christian friends and relatives post primarily Bible verses as their status updates, yet they never seem to post any of the offensive or evil verses in that vile book. To rectify the oversight, Megan began posting one extremely offensive Bible verse a day as her status.

As you would imagine, this didn't result in any Christians leaving comments like "Amen sister!" Instead, they came on to explain why the verses didn't mean what they say, or try to rationalize why they aren't as outright evil as they sound. I've always loved that little inconsistency in religious folk. Talk about the Christian deity's grace or forgiveness or power, and you get an "Amen!" Talk about how he commanded parents to stone rebellious children to death, and you get an altogether different response.

Throughout our many conversations with religious people, Megan and I both have begun to see recurring patterns in how the religious respond to arguments. You'll see here the mental gymnastics required to believe that the Christian deity never changes, even though he changed his mind on most of the Old Testament laws. You'll see the glory of Pascal's Wager and how it so spectacularly blows up in the face of anyone who uses it. One of the worst aspects of religion again rears it's ugly head - which is people being willing to rationalize horrendous actions in order to continue believing their particular deity is still good and just. Of course, the common tactic of simply ignoring every argument presented continues its inglorious run from previous blogs as well.

Finally, you'll also see a rather annoying trend that continues in nearly every discussion we have these days - that of Christians deciding that they need to invent reasons why we aren't religious that have nothing to do with the arguments we are currently presenting. Yes, that's right, apparently when we point out the inconsistencies in people's beliefs about their deities, or explain logically why the supernatural isn't real, or point out the severe immorality in religion - none of that is actually what we mean at all. We are both more than happy to explain why we feel religion of all stripes is absurd, but for some reason Christians feel the need to come up with some other explanation to rationalize why we disregard the things they see as so obviously true.

As with the other articles in this line, each person who took part in the discussion gets a color such as green or blue, and most of the posters are referred to by a pseudonym. Feel free to leave your own thoughts on anyone's arguments in the comments! I've also peppered in a few links in my posts towards the bottom for further reading on certain subjects. Here we go:


Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." --Exodus 21:20-21

Biblical morality at its finest! ;)

Ty Gordon Arthur

But Megan, when they save "slave" they really mean "Gentile bond servant!" Because it's totally OK to strike your bond servant with a rod as long as he's not Jewish...

It's verses like these that should make people run full speed in the opposite direction of religion. I'd never use a book filled with "wisdom" such as this as my moral compass.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

I'm just ashamed that I used the "morals" from this despicable book to govern the first 22 to 23 years of my life. :(

JF

it makes you really think doesn't it

SD

Hey, remember this one: "BIBLE: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" Hahahahaha....

KR

This verse was in the Old Testament, the old law. We no longer live under the old law of the Old Testament. We live by the grace of Jesus. Read Colossians 2:6-15.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Thanks for commenting KR, It's great to get alternate points of view.

However, it seems you may not have fully thought through the ramifications of this verse. Regardless of the fact that the biblical deity changed his mind about slavery (which, of course, contradicts his claim that he is the same "yesterday as today as tomorrow"), you still have to deal with the fact that there was a point in time in which he condoned slavery, and beating slaves. How do you morally justify following a deity who ever condoned slavery? Slavery is a morally bankrupt and abhorrent practice that is never acceptable, regardless of the time frame or culture one lives in.

You've also opened a pretty big can of worms by stating we are no longer under the law of the Old Testament. Does this mean you no longer intend on following the ten commandments or the verse about homosexuality being an abomination? Moreover, if we no longer have to follow the Old Testament, and since it's clearly such a big stumbling block for atheists such as myself and Megan anyway, why keep it in the Bible at all?

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, thanks for commenting! I always appreciate feedback and am especially interested on your opinion because your dad is a minister and I know you and your husband are actively involved in a ministry.

As Ty mentioned, many Christians are quick to say that because we are "under grace" we are no longer bound by the laws of the Old Testament. Those same Christians will then turn around and use those "laws" to oppress gays, women, etc. If we really are done with the Old Testament, it seems that we should also be able to let go of the Biblical view of how the world was created in favor of scientific explanations such as evolution.

JF, yes, this verse should definitely inspire people to reexamine their beliefs. Stay tuned over the next few days for more thought-inspiring verses.

SD: I hadn't thought about "basic instructions before leaving earth" in FOREVER! Ah, just one more cute little catch-phrasey saying that Christians think proves their point! And SD, don't think I've forgotten that time we took you to church and you *almost* went to the front to get "saved." Good for you for standing your ground and not "drinking the Kool-Aid"!

SD

Yeah that circus still haunts me :)

KR

The Bible never says that God condoned the slavery that was taking place. There is also murder in the scriptures but it does not mean that it is condoned. Jesus Christ IS the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. He didn't condone it then or now.

Jesus came to do away with the old law. I am a New Testament Christian. Of course I still follow the Ten Commandments as they are presented in the New Testament. Homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament. Read Romans 1:26,27. He does not condone homosexuality, but he offers forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

There is great purpose for the Old Testament today. It's our guide that leads us to Christ. Please read Galatians 3:24-25. This explains it. The Old Testament is filled with prophecy that points us to Christ and those prophecies have been or will be fulfilled in Christ.

Everyone either believes this or they don't. I choose to believe and have hope.

Megan-the Old Testament in its entirety is not to be forgotten. What the Bible says in the scriptures is that the old laws were nailed to the cross. The Old Testament is still God's Word. It's not done away with, we are just no longer under the laws of the OT.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Thanks for keeping the conversation going KR!

Unfortunately, this verse we are discussing is very much something that the biblical deity condones. I'm not sure how you are coming up with the idea that the phrase ""If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property." isn't a law that came from the biblical deity. It's a command from him, written by men who were "divinely inspired" (or more specifically in the context of the Biblical story, it was Moses explaining the laws to his people after coming down off the mountain).

What about this verse makes you think God wasn't happy with it? Nowhere does it then say "Oh, but did we mention that God didn't like that this was happening?" In fact I think that actually further proves my point - why didn't God say in his ten commandments "Slavery is wrong. Period."?

Your analogy to murders occurring in the bible only quasi-applies (and not in a way that helps your argument). Yes, there are murders and battles that occur, but the ones you are referring to are part of a description of events or parable and not a law being shared by God, which this verse very much is. There are instances however where God does command people to go out and murder, which is another thing about the biblical deity that should give you pause (not to mention all his own killing sprees).

It doesn't really get any more clear than "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live." I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in a God who ever expected people to murder all the witches they come across, even if he later changed his mind.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, the fact that we once were under the Old Testament law, but now aren't seems to be a change in and of itself, directly contradicting Hebrews 13:8 ("Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever"), Malachi 3:6 (For I am the Lord, I do not change) and others.

So, when this big New Testament change supposedly happened, did all the prophets get a memo? I see that going a little something like this...

God: "Hey there Paul, not sure if you noticed or not (maybe you didn't get my last memo), but we're no longer doing that nasty Old-Testament-law business."

Paul: "What, we're not?" *blink, blink*

God: "Yeah...uh, so you can probably lay off gays and women now, you know, 'saved' under the whole 'grace' thing."

Paul: "But...but...I already published my epistles."

God: "Really? Huh. Well, lets just leave it. I mean, hating gays and women was one of my favorite things from the Old Testament anyway."

KR

God wasn't happy with it because God does NOT like any sin. Where does the Bible say that God likes it? Sin is of Satan, not God. Would you be willing to give me some more scripture references to back your arguments up? I'm not sure that I understand about the witches. Could you explain that?

Here is something on slavery:

Forced slavery, as the Bible makes clear, is an EVIL act. It's been going on since strong people found that others are weak, and it's still common today. Anyone enslaving someone in this way was to be put to death.

Indentured(written contract) servitude, on the other hand, is generally good. It allowed people with little to work for those with much. Those with plenty would provide for the poor and protect them. The word "slavery" doesn't really apply here, since those involved entered into a legal contract. That contract could be broken, renewed, or taken to court if things went badly.

There is NO regulation of enforced slavery in Scripture. If you're caught, you die. There IS regulation of indentured (written contract)servitude, to make sure that everyone is being treated fairly.

Michael

@KR God didn't call for and end to slavery, so at the very least he is complicit in the fact that is was used throughout the Jewish empire. Also, as for the New Testament, ever read Philemon? It was written to a Roman slave, who was basically told to suck it up and be the best slave he could be, because that would honor god.

Oh, one final note ... please don't claim to keep the ten commandments, because I'm pretty sure you don't keep the Sabbath.

Ty Gordon Arthur

KR: the Bible says that God likes it in the very verse we are discussing. Have you read it? I've already quoted it once, I don't think it's really necessary to do so again. This verse very specifically lays out the mandate for when someone should be punished for beating their slave, and when it's OK because the slave is their property. If you want to go through the mental gymnastics necessary to believe that Exodus 21:20-21 doesn't specifically show how your deity condones beating slaves (or "indentured servants"), then you still have to deal with the fact that this deity (being all knowing) must have known this slavery was going on (otherwise it wouldn't have been in the Bible), and yet for some reason he never once issues a decree stating he abhors the practice. This is especially important in this particular part of the Bible, since this is exactly when God is giving his laws to his followers.

Regardless of whether you want to believe that "slave" really meant "indentured servitude" (which is also not OK by the way), you can't get around the fact that the Bible still says its OK to beat them with a rod, as long as they live for at least a day or two afterwords. Why aren't you troubled by that? Indeed, why aren't you troubled by the fact that you have been reduced to rationalizing slavery in order to continue believing in your book of supernatural mumbo-jumbo? You said "Forced slavery, as the Bible makes clear, is an EVIL act." Ummm...you have read the Bible, right? I'm still not entirely convinced you've actually read the original verse that started this discussion. It's not like this is the only verse describing the protocol for slave ownership, and as Michael pointed out, it's not even limited to the Old Testament.

In regards to witches, Exodus 22:18 very plainly says "Thou shalt not permit a witch to live." It doesn't get any more clear than that. We'll ignore the fact that witchcraft isn't real for the moment and go on to the more pressing issue - why aren't you bothered by the fact that your God issued this edict? It's irrelevant that he then changed his mind in the new testament, you still have to deal with the fact that the edict ever existed at all. Murdering women, regardless of whether you think they have magic powers, is not acceptable. There are a host of other incredibly disturbing examples, such as Deuteronomy 21:18-21, which commands you to stone your children to death if they are rebellious.

I would recommend reading a book a little more thoroughly before coming to the conclusion it holds all the secrets of the universe and is going to be the basis of your morals.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur

KR, thanks for being a good sport and staying in the discussion.

Indentured servitude, as you describe it, would be fine. But the Bible passage I quoted makes it clear that this is not the happy, mutually beneficial arrangement that you're painting it to be.

Let's say I have a great housekeeper...we'll call her Lupe. I like her work so much that I ask Lupe to enter into a contract with me to be my housekeeper for a certain number of years. Lupe agrees: we're both happy. I have a great housekeeper, Lupe has steady work. That's fine. One day I come home from work and decide that I don't like the way that Lupe has been polishing the silver...so I grab a baseball bat (rod, or other blunt weapon) and beat Lupe to within an inch of her life. I don't kill her outright, but I injure her so badly that she dies a few days later of internal injuries sustained during the beating. If I were to do something like this I would be a terrible person, but I would also be following the Biblical guidelines for the treatment of slaves as outlined in Exodus 21:20-21. Do you still want to describe this scenario as one in which a servant is being "treated fairly"?

KR

Obviously you guys have really put a lot of thought into this. Probably because you have a lot of questions and deep down you know that there is someone much bigger than yourself out there. Romans 1:20 reminds us of the fact that: "since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

I hope that one day your eyes are opened and that you will allow God's grace and peace into your life, but until you drop the cynicism and anger, you'll always struggle in life.

I will be dropping out of the conversation from now on, arguing certainly won't change my view, I've seen how God can bless a life, and it's obvious you won't be changing your views either.

I will leave you with one final thought, laying all of the 'issues' of the scriptures aside, think about this. When I die, if I'm wrong about the Lord, what do I have to lose? Absolutely nothing, I have a blessed life, wonderful family and friends and have a great system of moral values. And if I'm right, I've got Heaven to look forward to.

But when YOU die, if you're wrong, what do you have to lose? Everything.

My very best wishes to all of you. God loves you, even if the feeling isn't mutual.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Well I’m sorry to see you bow out so early KR, especially without answering any of my questions. On the off chance you continue reading or decide to respond again, I will still be responding to your last post. You may want to recall that the Bible says the Holy Spirit will always give you the right words to sway unbelievers, so perhaps you should keep trying until those words come?

I actually rather enjoy this segment of the conversation, because it’s where the religious person stops making any actual arguments or responding to any queries and starts using emotional calls instead. What’s great about this is that the religious person almost never considers how these emotion based “arguments” can immediately be turned back around on them, and prove absolutely nothing.

For example, you said “Obviously you guys have really put a lot of thought into this. Probably because you have a lot of questions and deep down you know that there is someone much bigger than yourself out there.” Since I’ve read the Bible cover to cover multiple times, and am very aware of the intricacies of the various Christian denominations, you need to have a backup option to explain why I’m not part of your religion. This is rather silly though, as clearly you would use an opposite argument if I weren’t informed about Christianity. You are trying to have it both ways here. Whether I know about Christianity or not you still wouldn’t accept the fact that I reject it. I absolutely do not know that there is “something much bigger than myself out there,” for if I did, would I then be arguing with you about it?

More importantly, this “argument” can be thrown right back at you. Say for instance that I told you Zeus (or Hecate or Poseidon or Allah or any other man-made deity) was the one true God, and Jesus was a false savior who can’t fill the Zeus-shaped hole in your heart. You would be completely justified in trying to explain to me that my God was nothing more than a mythological fairy tale, and that many of Zeus’s actions are suspect or outright immoral. Would you then be swayed to believe in Zeus in any way if I said to you “You know deep down that there is something much bigger and more powerful than Jesus out there. You know Zeus is real, you just refuse to believe in him for some reason.” Obviously you would not, so why would you think it would work on anyone else by swapping out the name of the deity with the particular man-made God you worship?

You also said “When I die, if I'm wrong about the Lord, what do I have to lose? Absolutely nothing, I have a blessed life, wonderful family and friends and have a great system of moral values. And if I'm right, I've got Heaven to look forward to. But when YOU die, if you're wrong, what do you have to lose? Everything.” This is an argument known as Pascal’s Wager, and it’s another that can immediately be thrown back at you. When I die, if I’m wrong about Allah and his prophet Mohammed, I lose absolutely nothing, and if I’m correct I have paradise to look forward to. But when YOU die, if you are wrong about this Jesus fellow, what do you have to lose? Everything. Are you in any way swayed to become Islamic because of that statement?

First of all, I deny outright that you lose nothing. You’ve wasted your life on a lie and spent your entire existence believing in a fairy tale. I also deny that you have a “great system of moral values.” You have yet to explain how you morally justify following a God who at one time condoned slavery, stoning children to death, and murdering witches. In fact you’ve basically ignored everything we’ve said and every Bible verse we’ve quoted.

Second, there is absolutely no reason to live a life based on a religion just because it *might* be true and there *might* be an afterlife and there *might* be a being deciding who goes to which kind of afterlife. Extraordinary claims (for instance – “A big invisible man in the sky wants you to telepathically affirm your allegiance to his zombie son because of the antics of a talking snake”) require extraordinary evidence. Since I have literally no evidence whatsoever to suggest that either the Christian or Islamic deities have any basis in reality, it would be very silly of me to live a life based on those fairy tales as “fire insurance” on the off chance one of them turns out to be real. Following a religion because you are afraid of the punishment of hell most definitely doesn’t give you any sort of moral high ground.

You are also ignoring the loss that occurs to society but continuing to let people use a set of bronze age superstitions as the basis for their world view. For eight years we had no federal funding for stem cell research, one of the most promising means of completely curing the scourge of diabetes, because of our president’s religious beliefs. Likewise, religion gives us all those wonderful things like suicide bombers, and Christians who shoot doctors, and a host of other truly terrible things that wouldn’t happen if people weren’t so concerned with which big invisible man in the sky is the “right” one. I’m most definitely gaining something by refusing to take part in this system, and the world as a whole loses something when people choose to believe in the supernatural with no evidence and take part in this absurdity.

You stated “I will be dropping out of the conversation from now on, arguing certainly won't change my view, I've seen how God can bless a life, and it's obvious you won't be changing your views either.” How precisely did God bless the lives of the indentured servants beaten to death? How did he bless the lives of the children stoned to death under his edicts? How did he bless the lives of the women burned to death because of superstitious beliefs in witchcraft? How does he bless the lives of the children raped by Catholic priests or the young girls married to men four times their age in polygamist Mormon splinter groups or the people in Africa dying in droves because priests insist that “condoms cause AIDS.”? These things are only possible because people are willing to cast aside logic and embrace the unfounded superstition of religion.

Oh and as a final parting shot - Zeus loves you, even if the feeling isn't mutual. I'll be praying you see his truth.