The Fourth Wedding Anniversary Extravaganza

June 28th is a double anniversary for us, as it was both our fourth wedding anniversary and our second full year of working from home solely as freelance writers. Two of the best decisions we've ever made, and I can't imagine living life any other way now. The 28th fell on a Monday this year, so we worked through the weekend and took Monday and Tuesday off, which meant that essentially from late Sunday night to Wednesday morning we're on a mini-vacation. Humorously, nearly everything that possibly could go wrong did go wrong, but it was still a great vacation.

Sunday night we decided to finally pull down the World of Warcraft board game off the shelf and give it a go. We've had the game for two years now, but never actually played it because the instruction manual is the size of a coffee table book and is 30 pages long. It also has over 1,000 pieces, so it never really seemed worth figuring out the rules to play. After reading through the book and setting up the board (took about an hour and a half) we finally took our first dip into a non-digital Azeroth to battle the vile necromancer Kel-Thuzad. Here's Matt, Jacob, and myself trying to figure out if we have the board all ready to go:

And this next one is during the game itself. It's way more complicated than it needs to be (we immediately changed the combat rules as there's really no need to mess with all those tiny tokens instead of just writing down the numbers on a piece of paper), but once we got the hang of it we had a good time. There are a lot of customization options available. Eight different classes, each with a range of powers and abilities that can be bought at each level, and you can earn or buy a huge range of items. Complex, but satisfying, as it feels like you have actual control over how your character progresses.



The car broke down on Saturday afternoon, and it took our normally awesome repair shop nearly two days to figure out the problem. When they finally realized what needed to be replaced, the part they ordered in was immediately defective, so as of this writing the car is still sitting in the shop awaiting a new part. A little thing like lack of transportation wasn't going to derail a good time though, so we changed our plans and went to a bunch of places we could walk to. Here's two anniversary babies getting ready to hoof it:


For anyone wondering, my shirt says "Dorothy Mantooth is a saint!" If you disagree, I'm more than willing to throw down in a round of fisticuffs. A trek to Hastings is required on any given day, and (score one for me) they put out their copies of the Pathfinder GameMastery Guide on their book carts two weeks earlier than they were supposed to. Surprisingly they still sold it to me, so I've got this delicious 320 page not-yet-released hardcover Pathfinder book:

Paizo again provides the best content, taking the idea of the Dungeon Master's Guide and ramping it up a notch. The book is worth it for the random tables alone: Interesting Flotsam Floating in the Ocean, Unique City Traits, NPC Secrets, Ghost Ships and Lost Boats, Shop Names, Random Adventuring Party Name Generator, Plot Twists, Personality Characteristics, Mundane Room Characteristics, Dungeon Entrances, and just about anything else you can think of. Of course its filled with all kinds of other stuff, like dozens of stat blocks and backgrounds for any type of NPC ever needed, dealing with different types of players, and using non-traditional elements like time travel or sci-fi in your campaign.

We walked over to Jaker's for lunch and had the traditional salad bar. We figured adding on the half sandwich wouldn't be over doing it, and we were wrong. There's way too much going on in the Jaker's salad bar to get anything else. Lobster Bisque soup, turkey and Swiss soup, horseradish potato salad, and a dumb number of salad fixings all prevented me from eating my half Reuben.

Next up we were going to check into the hotel we stay at every year for our anniversary and get our standard Jacuzzi room. When we get there we discover their pool and hot tub are out of commission (good thing we didn't get our room in advance like we normally do!). It's the only hotel within walking distance, so we decided to take a cab to a different hotel. We went with the La Quinta, as their pool is open 24 hours and the breakfast is the exact same as at our normal hotel. Before calling the cab we browsed the mall for awhile, where I got my first hair trim in something like a year and a half, and I picked up two Children of Bodom shirts on awesome clearance.

Weird side note: what the hell happened to Hot Topic? I mean I realize it's never been something with a huge pull for elitist underground metal fans (or adults in general I guess), but there was a time when everything there was evil (or at least gothic) and seemed to have a general "Hellraiser" sort of theme. Now they sell Miley Cyrus CDs and Justin Bieber shirts (ahahahah, OK, maybe that's just a different breed of evil). I bought a Pinhead-style full body trench coat there when I was 18, and now I don't see anything besides Nickelodeon cartoon apparel and Twilight gear?!? I guess good for them for raking in the cash by appealing to the lowest common denominator?

Mackenzie River Pizza Co. is right next to the hotel, so that was our dinner destination instead of our original plan of Macaroni Grill. I went with the sourdough crust, soy cheese, soy pepperoni, and spicy buffalo sauce mixed in the tomato sauce. Megan had the "Madison," which has got dollops of Ricotta cheese (why don't more pizza places use this?!?) and bacon. I was jonesing for wings, so we got the Jamaican Jerk flavor, and it was pretty damn good.

After eating I spent a little time working on our next role playing campaign, which is finally going to be the Planescape campaign I've been working on for years, titled "The Spiral Touch." Expect all the weirdness and grandeur that makes Planescape great - amnesiac immortals, shadow witches who will tear apart the universe to understand what will change the nature of a man, heretic clerics who worship opposing gods equally and are hunted by both religions, angels that are far more dangerous than their diabolic counterparts, scheming demon lords who just may turn out to be the best kind of allies, living inventory items with personalities, a pillar of talking skulls willing to share secrets for the right price, reformed evil wizards trying their darndest to stay on the straight and narrow, and trips to the breathtaking vistas of the seven mounting heavens of Celestia and to the worst stinking pits of the Abyss! The word "epic" doesn't do it justice :)

We have a tradition of raiding Albertsons on our anniversary for snacks to eat in hotel beds, and this year was no exception. All the stuff we normally don't get is fair game - this year we went with chicken in a biscuit and easy cheese, raspberry fig newtons, and nutter butters.

Then it was time for knocking back shots and simmering in the hot tub (the sign says not to, but the sign is wrong). There was of course copious questioning of the teachings of the Mormon church while under the influence of alcohol (Can't explain how happy and lucky I feel that my brain came with a built-in bullshit detector - many people weren't so fortunate), and then we decided to do something we always regret. We watched cable television. Morbid curiosity always overtakes us in hotels, and we never learn our lesson. Mindless commercials that actively suck out your intelligence, shows that cater to people with the attention span of hyperactive two year olds, and the scourge that is reality television. Never again! Until next year.

Here I am after we checked out, sipping on ye olde coffee:


It was a jam packed weekend, and it isn't quite over yet. I'm off to get some work done on "Letting Go of Santa Claus" (the book I'm writing about atheism), put together some material for our upcoming campaign, and probably waste a good couple of hours on video games.

Conversations with the Religious - The Problem of Personal Testimonies

As research for the book I'm writing, I've put myself into as many religious discussions as possible to see what the average religious person actually has to say when confronted with issues such as the immorality of the Bible or the absurdity in believing in supernatural events without evidence to back them up. I've read the big name apologists, but I'm finding its much more interesting to see what Joe Christian has to say in a real life situation. While many of the discussions see the same issues over and over (deflections of questions, outright ignoring questions, appealing to emotion, personal attacks, etc.), most of them have something unique that showcases a serious problem with the arguments from the religious camp.

Awhile back Megan and I were discussing how our religious friends and family frequently post Bible verses as their Facebook status, but for some reason they never post the extremely offensive or immoral ones. To rectify this oversight, she started posting only the most depraved verses possible as her status updates, and a few other people started following suit. My friend Michael (from the last post about coming face to face with madness) posted a series of verses to show how the Christian God doesn't follow his own rules and commits immoral actions. As usual, several people came on to comment, and most of them refused to answer any arguments at all.

The point that makes this one worth reading is when one participant (whom will call DM), having no answer for any of the issues I raised, randomly decides to give me his personal testimony. Apparently this person thought that I would just forget all the problems with his Bible and the lack of logic in his statements if he flooded me with a storm of personal anecdotes about God changing his life and tales of his deity supposedly healing the sick.

Personal anecdotes have always been a pet peeve of mine, so I again had to post one of my favorite Qualia Soup videos about how they can't be used as the basis for any belief in supernatural events. There are a host of problems with using personal testimonies as some sort of "proof" of anyone's religion. First of all, they ignore that people of both opposing denominations and even opposing religions also have testimonies of how their beliefs changed them, or how their deity supposedly did something miraculous. Obviously they can't all be correct, but no Christian giving a personal testimony is ever bothered in the slightest that Muslims, Jews, and members of radically different Christian denominations all have similar stories that just swap out the name of their deity.

These testimonies also ignore the logical problems of proclaiming that someone recovering from an illness is somehow proof of a deity's existence. If someone accepts that argument, then they also have to be willing to accept the inverse argument. If someone recovering from a sickness (and I'm willing to bet the person's doctor has a different tale to tell besides divine intervention) proves that any given deity does exist, then does it disprove that deity's existence when an otherwise healthy person keels over? What about people who have many believers fervently praying for them, yet they still die?

At one point DM states that his Bible must be true because the dictionary (or presumably any other book) couldn't change his life. We'll put aside the issue that he himself even admits he was drunk out of his mind during this revelation of the Bible (giggle), and go to the real issue here. Apparently this person is unaware of the existence of other holy books and the many people who proclaim they are directly responsible for changes in their lives? Many people have their lives changed by books other than the Bible.

One last thing before we get to the discussion itself - we see an issue here that occurs in many of my upcoming discussions as well. When the religious run out of ammo in any given argument, they then tend to randomly begin attacking evolution instead of defending their own faith. It should be (but somehow isn't) perfectly obvious that the truth or falsehood of evolution has no impact whatsoever of the immorality in the Bible. The contradictions in the Bible don't suddenly vanish, and the immoral verses don't suddenly become moral, if our modern understanding of biology suddenly turned out to be incorrect. Regardless of whether biologists are correct or not, belief in the supernatural still remains silly.

As with the other blogs, each participant in the discussion gets their own color, like this color or this color. Here we go:

Michael
"And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, ...I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." - 2 Chr 18:19-21

"And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee." - 2 Chr 18:21-22

So, God wasn't content for Ahab to be the King of Israel, so he commissioned a lying spirit to mislead him into believing he would be victorious in battle, when really he would be killed. Does this mean that lying is okay as long as it's for God?

A.
Why do people "assume" that they know what God ought to do?

B.
wow that is some confusing ass shit ... was it designed that way ??? or is it just me ???

DM
Did you overlook that what you quoted was a vision through a prophet ~meant~ as an lesson/illustration? It's a description of what happened in a symbolic vision, not a prescription of what should happen by you and me. Here's the problem, "God... cannot lie" (Titus 1:2). Either you're right, or God is. It's easy for me to choose which one I'll believe.

Michael
So it's not a prescription for us. Okay. It doesn't say God lied, but rather that he sanctioned a lying spirit to do his dirty work for him. How's that for morality?

DM
Actually, that's fairly easy. If the king, namely Ahab, didn't want to listen to God, there was only one other option left--a lying spirit. There is only one way or the other--we are with God or we are against Him (Luke 11:23).

Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, you might want to re-read what you just wrote, because your post only further reinforced Michael's point, instead of defeating it.

B.
my opinion is we must look at who wrote the bible ... wasnt a divine being ...

DM
Thank you Ty. Michael is right--kind of. God has no other option. You're with Him or against Him. That's the truth, but being immoral in that was what I was addressing.
And Billy, the Bible says of itself that it was inspired by God through holy men and women (2 Tim 3:16). BUT, we wont change each others minds here on Facebook, so thanks for the comments. =)

Ty Gordon Arthur
This is one of the most disturbing aspects of religion, and something I've come across in many an online discussion. Because the Bible was written by men, and the Biblical deity was made up by men, there are many instances in which the Biblical deity behaves in a very manlike way. Indeed, there are many instances in which he behaves just like the superstitious slave owning bronze age desert dwellers who created him.

Unfortunately this means that Christians will always eventually come into an issue where they have to rationalize God's immoral behavior. In this instance it's as minor as lying or sending a spirit out to lie for him (although in recent discussions it's been about the old testament decrees on slavery, stoning rebellious children to death, and murdering witches). It's disturbing when religious people are reduced to rationalizing such behavior to make up for inconsistencies in their deity's qualities. If God decrees that lying is wrong, he doesn't then get to go and lie. That double standard and lack of morality is so blatantly a manlike quality. If God were all knowing, surely he would have foreseen that there would be a time when slavery was abhorred and stoning children would be a quick way to get your kids taken away by Child and Family Services? On the subject of this particular passage, shouldn't he have known people like Michael would have seen an inconsistency and tried to close the loop hole, so to speak?

DM, you said "the Bible says of itself that it was inspired by God through holy men and women." This is what's known as circular reasoning. You say you know the Bible is true, and when someone asks why, you respond by saying you know the Bible is true because the Bible says so. It's an argument that simply can't be defended. Would you convert to Islam if I told you the Koran was true because the Koran says the Koran is true?

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DM, aren't you at all concerned about the amount of mental gymnastics that you're having to do here? If I told you that I sent someone to lie to someone else and that lie got people killed, I hardly think you'd be defending my actions. But since it's god, he gets a free pass to do all kinds of TERRIBLE things! If god were real, and if his ways were really "higher than ours", his actions wouldn't be riddled with typical human flaws like jealousy, anger, deceit and violence. You can't actually expect me to believe that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity is just as petty and spiteful as your average human.

A.: Because I have morals and integrity and the mythological god of the Bible does not.

DM
This is the result of the Bible you say was written by humans. A dictionary could not have done this: (a brief history to the present)
Because of spending time with people raised in families who knew not God, I was smoking by the age of seven. At nine I started drinking, started smoking pot at 10 and playing drums in a heavy metal band for nine years starting also at age 10. During that time I made $25. 57 an hour at the age of 18-19. I drove a 72, SS Chevelle, had beautiful blondish/brown hair going down to the middle of my back, had a stunning girlfriend, the popularity of a band member, and all the drugs and extra women I wanted. The years that I was knowingly apart from God were the most irresponsible, empty, misguided and ill-directed years of my life. When at 19 years old I saw a vision of destruction while intensely inebriated, my life was about to radically change. A voice relentlessly called me to pick up and read the Bible. I finally listened, and within a month I was baptized. I read the Bible from six to eight hours a day for the first year of being a Christian. I was trained as a missionary and called to be a pastor after only four years of accepting to follow God. Since then I have seen more miracles and have had a far better life than ever I could have imagined possible. Why? Because I committed my self to the God in Bible study, prayer, and witnessing. Since becoming a Christian, I’ve seen many lives changed from being like mine to being like Christ’s in radical ways. These lives are an example of multiple miracles each. Beyond the changed lives, I’ve seen Sheri take a CT Scan that showed a major heart attach which the doctors said must have been a mechanical error because of the further tests that were done the next day after I had prayed for the Lord to give her a new heart. Larry’s granddaughter was only two years old with a tumor inside of her head the size of a man’s fist. After praying on our knees together, Larry’s granddaughter was tumor-less while the doctors had no explanation. What about a man named David? He fell many feet from a rock and exploded his ankle. When going in for an x-ray, the results showed that he needed to be immobilized in that leg and would need a cast after the swelling went down. After praying about it, the very next day he woke up, got out of the bed and put on his clothes. He went to work and saw the doctor come in, a non-Christian doctor, which was amazed at his standing and mobility. What about when I was working and heard a mental voice give me an address? I wrote it down, told the boss about it, a Christian, and she said that I should write a letter to it. I knew that it must be to my girlfriend’s mother, who lived on Jajoba road, so I wrote and sent it. A week or two later the response came back with an exasperating note that said, something like, “Thank you sooo much for your letter DM. I had been praying, and that letter was my answer!” Time would fail us both if I were to recall all the times I needed money, clothes, food, and the basic other needs of life while a missionary. While without pay for a year and a half with my family, God sent ample provisions for myself, my incredible family, and enough to share with others. Now, my life has been so changed as to have a peaceful, loving, happy home with my wife and two amazing children.
My testimony is living proof that there is Divine power in the Bible that works to do what it says it will.
I challenge all of you to use the Bible for the next year to find what you can to prove that God is who you say He is, and you will not only see a Holy and Living God, but an angry devil. Open that Word and give it a fair chance, and your lives too will be changed.


A.
Amen DM!!! God is real, no matter how much the devil tries to convince people otherwise.

Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, it's very interesting that you ignored every point Megan and myself made and instead decided you could get your point across with a storm of personal anecdotes. Unfortunately personal anecdotes are never a valid basis for any sort of supernatural belief system. This is an amazing video that very concisely, rationally, and calmly explains why this is so and I'd recommend you watch it:



The problem with these personal anecdotes is that I have no way whatsoever of verifying them. I can't speak with these doctors who supposedly did nothing to heal these people to see what they have to say on the subject. I have no way of knowing if you are simply misinformed or are specifically distorting the truth.

You also have to realize that if you use a personal anecdote to "prove" your supernatural beliefs, then you also have to be open to the opposite anecdotes disproving them. You speak of people being miraculously healed because you talked to yourself while pretending to commune with an invisible sky daddy. What about all the people who are otherwise healthy but suddenly drop dead without any explanation? Does that disprove your God's existence? What about the people who get sick, and have many people fervently praying for them, but don't get better? Does that disprove your God's existence? On a more humorous note, there was recently a news story about a six story tall Jesus statue that was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. Does that prove that Zeus exists and that he's angry at our idolatry and worship of false gods?

I'm sorry to hear that you need a talking snake and a zombie savior to stay off the drugs and keep your life on track. That sounds like a personal failing that doesn't prove anything at all, other than your willingness to be gullible. I don't believe in any man made deities (be it Jehovah, Allah, Hecate, Zeus, Cthulhu, etc.) and yet I'm a moral, monogamous man who doesn't abuse drugs.

On the subject of you hearing voices - please seek help. That's a sign of mental illness, not evidence of an all powerful divine being.

A.
Good thing we are not in old testament times now:
Le 24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Ty Gordon Arthur
Eh, A., that doesn't help your position in any way. It only further shows how immoral and manlike your deity is. It also only further shows me why I, as a moral person, would never want to be counted as a member of your religion.

DM
Ty, you didn't believe the Bible I referred to in earlier posts, you don't believe my personal testimony, you question the validity of my words in regards to real experiences, and you wont believe anything other than what you think is right, so I don't know that our conversation will do either of us any good. Thanks for your thoughts and your time. But the link you sent me was broken--very telling.

Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, you have yet again failed to answer any questions or actually give a valid response to any arguments. I'll again direct you to re-read your own words here. Your last post describes your actions in this discussion better than my own. You will only believe what you think is right, and have outright ignored every argument against your beliefs instead of addressing them in any way.

I'm not sure what you mean about the link being broken, as I just clicked it and it works fine. If you are having technical difficulties, just hit YouTube and search for "The Problem With Anecdotes." It's the first video by the user Qualia Soup.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DM, your last post contributed absolutely nothing of relevance to the debate. Sharing personal testimonies is one of the weirdest defense mechanisms that I've encountered when dealing with Christians. When presented with an argument that they can't counter, Christians invariably spew forth a deluge of ridiculous anecdotes that they think proves the existence of their fictitious deity. I was guilty of doing this exact same thing back when I was a Christian. I had numerous laughable anecdotes in my repertoire, several about god helping me find misplaced items such as an overdue library book, a vial of insulin, two matching socks and a pair of shoes.

DM, if you felt your young life was so out-of-control, why weren't you making steps to change your direction on your own? Did you really need the threat of eternal damnation to motivate you to turn things around?

As for all your personal anecdotes of "medical miracles", I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you. Without any way to verify what you've said, you can hardly expect me to believe your extraordinary claims. I wonder what the doctors would say if we were able to talk to them...I'm sure we'd hear all about how the people in your examples were actually helped using scientifically-verifiable medical procedures.

And Ty's right, hearing voices is a sign of a serious mental illness. Please consult a mental health professional right away.

A., if god were real, he should be so comfortable in his position as an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being that he doesn't care whether or not people are blaspheming him. The passages you posted only work to prove our point: that the Bible is an ancient immoral book that was written by backwards men in the Bronze Age. Also, since we're quoting the Old Testament, I hope you're not wearing any multi-fiber blended clothing (Deuteronomy 22:11). ;)

B.
well DM holy men ... rape young boys does that make it right ???

A.
Ty, I was in no way trying to convince you of anything. You are so intelligent, that you can figure everything out on your own. The Christians that read my last post however, know exactly what I was saying, even if it went right over your head.

Ty Gordon Arthur
I'm loving this recurring trend of the religious people absolutely ignoring every argument and statement and refusing to address them in any way.

I'm afraid I do know what you were trying to say with your last post A. (it wasn't hard to figure out, as you didn't say much of anything, and instead let the Bible talk for you). All issues of you trying to compare Michael to the character in the story aside, reminding all the "blasphemers" that we would have been stoned to death in the old testament for our use or reason most certainly doesn't help your case in any way, and only shows exactly what I've been saying all along.

In fact that particular verse helps my position quite a bit. Why did God show himself to Moses and tell Moses to kill the blasphemer, instead of just showing up to the blasphemer and going "Oh hey, sorry about not making it clear before, but I'm real and you can't blaspheme me." Would have been a lot less killing required. The same holds true today.

As Megan also said (and you also ignored - imagine that, that never happens or anything...) if your God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, then it shouldn't matter to him what we pathetic little mortals think of him. The fact that he cares so much (that guy doesn't like me? Stone him to death!) shows that he is nothing more than a man made construction.

A.
I have asked for proof that the evolution thing is true. So far I have seen nothing concrete. Until I see some proof, I will stick with what I believe, God. I can think for myself. Give me something I can use.

Ty Gordon Arthur
I just don't get it. Are religious people just incapable of responding to queries and arguments? Do they have some sort of logic filter that immediately deletes the words from their memory banks as soon as they are read?

First of all, if you want to see the evidence that backs up evolution, perhaps you should try watching the videos Michael posts or reading the books he's mentioned? There is a wealth of knowledge to be found at your local library and many books on the subject of biology that can easily be acquired. I believe Megan previously had recommended "The Greatest Show on Earth." If you want to know about biology, you need to do the research. Until then, it's really not our job to do it for you.

But you know what, let's say for the sake of argument that biology is total bunk and absolute nonsense. Even if that were true, that wouldn't in any way make the Christian myth suddenly less ridiculous. If biology is utter nonsense, that still doesn't make it even remotely likely that a big invisible man in the sky wants us to telepathically affirm our allegiance to his zombie son because of the actions of a talking snake. Nor would that somehow do away with the problem that the biblical deity is an immoral monster who has supported and condoned some of the most disturbing and evil actions possible.

Conversations With The Religious - Coming Face To Face With Madness

Michael, a friend on mine on Facebook, has recently been posting a series of video clips and news articles regarding the evidence for evolution, answers to common creationist responses, and issues such as the morality of the Bible. His religious friends and family ignored the vast majority of these videos, but on a few they felt the need to comment (although it would appear without having actually watched the videos or reading the articles).

One of the videos he posted featured author Richard Dawkins discussing the Christian argument that all of humanity's morality is somehow derived from their religion, and more specifically their holy book. Dawkins talks about some of the more disturbing and immoral tales from the Bible, such as Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac, and how we shouldn't be using this book as our moral guide. For anyone interested in the original video, it can be viewed below.





A few people came on to comment, not about the video itself or any of the arguments it presented, but rather to chastise Michael for not believing in their particular deity. I've been involved in a lot of religious debates online, and seen a lot of really absurd arguments, but this is one discussion in which I can honestly claim I came to face to face with absolute madness. One poster (whom we'll call "Mr. M") goes on an awe inspiring rant, the likes of which I've seldom seen, about mysterious Catholic cults secretly pulling the strings of the entire world and creating the idea of evolution to lead people astray from the truth of the Bible.

I'm not one to defend the Catholic Church, as I myself frequently attack it for systematically creating and then protecting child molesters around the world, but this guy's ideas are so completely out there its hard not to laugh. He also has a wonderfully hilarious conspiracy theory video he felt the need to share, which appears to be greatly inspired by the movie "The Number 23." You can check out it below when he mentions it during the comments. You can, of course, tell the video is 100% accurate because it has scary music in the background and uses fun graphics! I couldn't stop giggling during his dissection of how the hexagram proves Catholics worship the devil - as the same argument could be used of the Tri-Force from the legend of Zelda video games.

One other truly jaw dropping point to look out for is when "Mr. M" says "the stories you never hear about are the southern slaves that were treated great by their white gentile slave owners" while we discuss how the Bible condones the morally bankrupt practice of slavery.

As with the other entries in the "Conversations with the Religious" series, everyone gets their own identifying color such as blue or red, and the religious folks are all given a pseudonym instead of having their real names displayed. And here we go:


Mr. M.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalm 53:1 KJV

Every creation has a creator.

E.

Amen Mr. M

Ty Gordon Arthur

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21. See how fun it can be to quote Bible verses?

The "every creation has a creator" argument has got to be retired. Does God then have a creator? By saying that God created everything we only move the equation back a single step, we don't solve it in any way.

Michael

Yes Mr. M, but yours just seems hell bent on destroying his own creation. Did you even watch the video?

Mr. M

@Ty: Context context context makes all the difference.

You quoted the law in the OT and we are now under grace in the NT taught through God in the flesh YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH.

"Ye hath god said" is what you're getting at, and that was exactly the FIRST lie from SATAN in the garden that caused the first murder history.

@Ty: The chicken or the egg question has got to be retired. YHWH clarifies your question clearly with...

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM Exodus 3:14 KJV

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 KJV

Ty Gordon Arthur

Mr. M, you seem to be missing the point that even though your deity has now changed his mind (which, of course, contradicts his claim that he is the same "yesterday as today as tomorrow"), you can't escape the fact that there was a point in which he condoned slavery. Not only slavery, but also beating slaves. Then there are those other fun verses, like the ones that command you to stone your children to death if they are rebellious, or command you to kill the next witch you come across.

Why doesn't it bother you that your God used to be O.K. with owning and beating slaves? Slavery is always wrong - period. It doesn't matter what culture or time frame you live in, slavery is still an abhorrent and a morally bankrupt practice.

It's also rather humorous that you don't want to follow the verse I quoted, because it's in the old testament and we are no longer under that law, yet you want me to follow the verse you quoted - which is also in the old testament. Who decides which ones we follow and which ones we don't?

Michael

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 1:8

Sorry Mr. M, but according to that verse, God isn't allowed to be fickle and change his mind. After all, he is supposed to be omnipotent, right?

Mr. M

See how the one true and LIVING God YHWH has ONE integrated message in over 66 different books by 40 different authors spanning the history of man?

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Praise YHWH.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Well you certainly get a prize for "most cryptic and enigmatic answer," as well as possibly "greatest example of mental gymnastics I've seen today," but unfortunately you didn't actually address the issues at hand in any way...

Mr. M

These mystery babylonian satanists in control of the world are building the BEAST system in front of our eyes for the coming man-beast to rule over the coming one world governement, currency and religion ruler.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666) Revelation 13:16-18 KJV

Ty Gordon Arthur

Ah yes, the "coming man-beast," of course. How could I have been so blind all this time?

Mr. M

See how the one true and LIVING God YHWH has ONE integrated message in over 66 different books by 40 different authors spanning the history of man?

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

Praise YHWH for he has but one way (Through his ONLY begotten Son Yahshua Hamashiach), while our adversary the Devil has many to keep you off that one way.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:13 KJV

Ty Gordon Arthur

These things you are saying aren't actually helping your position Mr. M. You say that he has "but one way" - so are you then admitting that your deity is still down with slavery and murdering witches? Make up your mind man!

Michael

And look at all the contradictions! Just what you would expect from a bunch of mere mortals writing a collection of books Over thousands of years: check out this link.

BTW Mr. M, another excellent question is where the Bible gets it's authority from. You're not Catholic, are you?

E.

Matt.22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is also in the old testament and if you do these two you will be keeping the Sabbath and you won't be killing, COMMITING ADULTRY, stealing. Lying ect. God is love! (1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.)
So many make him out to be a bad man that is standing ready for you to mess up so he can kill you when it is your sin that does you in.When in fact He told his people Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
With all agape love, Blessings~

Mr. M

All you mentioned from the OT scriptures is before the blood of Christ was spilled to redeem the world and put a stop to those practices of the law because there was no messiah and holy spirit.

The law of Christ was Love.

Michael

I love the part where he says he desires no one to be lost, but then he's also admitted to creating the evil ones for the day of judgement. I've pondered those passages for years, and no one ever has a rational explanation except not to question god. Nice.

Ty Gordon Arthur

I could be wrong (I'm not fluent in crazy), but I think he may have been referring to Catholicism with his "These mystery babylonian satanists in control of the world are building the BEAST system" statement. Back in my Christian school days they used to refer to Catholicism as the "whore of babylon" described in Revelations.

To both E. and Mr. M - it's great that you use your religion to teach love, but you still haven't answered why you aren't bothered that there was a point in time in which your God condoned slavery and child murder. It's really irrelevant that the blood of Christ made it so slavery is wrong - you still can't get around the fact that your own book condoned it at one time.

Mr. M, you said that "the blood of Christ was spilled to redeem the world and put a stop to those practices of the law." So are you then saying we can stop following those other old testament laws, such as the bit about homosexuality being an abomination? How about the ten commandments? How do you justify following those old testament laws while refusing to stone your children to death or own slaves?

Michael

So you admit that God changes, in direct violation of your own scriptures?

Mr. M

@E.: Amen

@Michael: No, I expose the Jesuit ruled mystery babylonian papal system here:



Michael

On the Catholicism part, yeah I know he's not Catholic. I'm trying to point out to him that the 66 books he puts his faith in were, in fact, selected and approved as the canon of scripture by the Catholic church itself. ;-)

Mr. M

@Michael: No... those are the codex vaticanus manuscripts you speak of. I base my faith on the original greek antioch textus receptus manuscripts and original hebrew masoretic manuscripts. Not the corrupt egyptian alexandrian manuscripts.

@Ty: I hope the prophecies of YHWH in my video help convict others of their sin and have them seek YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH for salvation. It did it for me.

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. - Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:30 KJV)

Either you believe in YHWH's sacrifice for redemption which lived a sinless life, died, resurrected and is coming back in great power and glory or you are spiritually of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye shall do.

FATHER OF THE BIG BANG THEORY WAS A KNIGHT OF MALTA CATHOLIC PRIEST AND FATHER OF THEORY OF RELATIVITY WAS A CATHOLIC JESUIT PRIEST. THEY ARE TRULY THE MOTHER OF ALL ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH! YOU ARE ALL BUYING INTO THE LIE. DARWIN'S GRANDFATHER WAS A JESUIT AND GOT HIS IDEAS FROM ANCIENT EGYPTIAN POEMS. DAWKINS IS A JESUIT RULED VATICAN PAWN.

@Ty: you love and pray for those lost in the name of Jesus Christ so that the power of the helper (holy spirit) convicts them. also, remember God even held his own people (Israelites) in captivity (slavery) in babylon and egypt.

Michael

Mr. M, who decided which books to include in the canon? Your Catholic masters, that's who! ;-) This isn't about source texts, although I would be highly impressed if you did red Greek and Hebrew!

Mr. M

@Ty: do you ever bash the "other side" like occultists, witches and etc.

There truly is another side fighting against the good believe it or not. It's not just deceived or confused people such as yourself that deny the salvation in Jesus Christ. There are some that know Satan is real and serve him as well if not better than plenty of Christians I know.

I find it funny that the TOTAL ONSLAUGHT is on the son of God while nobody ever looks into the occult and bashes that dark crap.

Let alone the Bible NAMES demons which the occult worships like Beliel and etc. I'm sure plenty of atheists out there just like false prophet Christians truly worship lucifer or satan behind the scenes and are leading many into eternal damnation unknowingly OR knowingly. Think about that one for a sec.

Michael

And, back to the original morality issue, I think the point remains unchallenged that the god of the bible has shown morality traits that would not be acceptable anywhere today in society. Thus, it can hardly be claimed that the source of morality is the aforementioned book.

Mr. M

@Michael: the books were decided by protestant reformers who were once catholics and were fed up with the temporal power of the pope, because they saw such horrible hypocrisy. Remember the inquisitions where millions of TRUE bible believers were killed by the vatican?

Also, I don't know how to read greek or hebrew but that's why a Concordance comes in handy my friend :)

Michael

The books were decided by Catholic bishops long before the Protestant reformation. You need to go do some further research, because I promise you, on this point you are very misinformed.

Mr. M

All you have is the slavery point that boils down to how the slave is treated and if not done for money (like vatican led black slavery in america) but after conquering other nations and etc as the babylonians did with the Canaanites and the egyptians did with the Israelites.

the stories you never hear about are the southern slaves that were treated great by their white gentile slave owners.

you better get used to the idea of slavery because its coming back when america is stripped of it's guns and is invaded by china and russia and God knows what else the Jesuits have in store.

@Michael: ex-catholic monk martin luther was the first to translate the ot original and nt originals into german and then tyndale and then geneva and then kjv. listen to what the jesuits of rome think of that most majestic kjv.

"Then the Bible, that serpent which, with head erect and eyes flashing threatens us with it's venom shall be changed again into a rod as soon as we are able to seize it for you know but too well that for three centuries past, this cruel asp has left us no repose you well know with what folds it entwines us and with what fangs it gnaws us!" Source: 'The Jesuit Conspiracy: The Secret Plan of the Order.' By Abbate Leone, Published 1848, P. 98

Michael

You're missing my point. Who picked Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John instead of the other gospels and epistles for which Greek manuscripts were available? Literally hundreds of books were available for inclusion. Who picked the 66? Where does the authority of these 66 books come from?

Mr. M

you need to look into the occult atheists and see how the darkness is playing you for suckers.

But don't worry, God will save you if you accept his sacrifice by way of his son Jesus Christ.

Former cahtolics fed up with the papacy helped reformers get a bible in the hand of the people, therefore killing the power of the papacy, therefore they created their super charger the jesuit order which counter-reformed and is not throwing everyone on Earth for a loop.

like i said, your atheists foundations are based on lies from vatican agents... big bang, theory of relativity and evolution! wake up! God preserves his word. PS - that is where faith comes into play for we cannot please YHWH without faith.

Also my faith based on evidence for things not seen. The evidence provided by the oldest manuscripts which mirror the kjv in the dead sea scrolls.

ps - it's awesome to see prophecy being played out before our eyes... atheists will surely eat up YHWH's coming "strong delusion" which is very saddening, because many will perish for a LIE because they did not believe the glorious gospel.

Ty Gordon Arthur

It's funny that you should mention how I don't attack the "other side," because just last weekend I had a long debate on my Facebook about how absurd the idea of voodoo magic and ghosts are. Unfortunately absurd beliefs in the supernatural aren't limited just to Christians :(

OK, I'm calling it - Mr. M has got to be a secret atheist in disguise trying to make Christians look bad. There's no other explanation for the posts I'm reading here.

You have consistently ignored every question posed to you. Why do you think it is acceptable that your deity ever condoned slavery or stoning children to death? I don't care about your deity changing his mind, I want to know how you can feel morally justified in following a higher power who EVER condoned such actions.

You said, "ps - it's awesome to see prophecy being played out before our eyes..."

I absolutely adore this argument from the religious. All monotheistic religions have a built in defense mechanism of "prophecy." If anyone disagrees with your religious beliefs, you can completely ignore them and proclaim that the very act of their disagreement only proves your religion right because of a prophecy proclaiming there will be disbelievers. Brilliant!

Mr. M

@Ty: sure atheists and evolutionists were exposed in the bible but i speak of the historical, scientific and the geo-political goings-on in the world that prove that YHWH's word of prophecy is true. As for the stoning, that was needed because nothing could drive the spirit of rebellion or sorcery out unless they are killed.

remember ty, our ways are not his ways. God is not the author of confusion and preserves his word even though the devil deceives the WHOLE world (unless grounded to that which is good... the bible).

ps - i was raised catholic, turned atheists thanks for the evolution religion/lie indoctrination i got from Rockefeller department of education schooling and i am glad to say now that I am saved and have been convicted of biblical truth.

Ty Gordon Arthur

You said, "As for the stoning, that was needed because nothing could drive the spirit of rebellion or sorcery out unless they are killed." Please don't have children.

You have, yet again, failed to answer the question. Even more humorously, you said that "God is not the author of confusion," despite the fact that you've frequently contradicted yourself and failed to give a single straight answer.

Mr. M

@ty: what do you think about the catholic church (mother of all abominations of the earth) being behind such huge cornerstones that you based your faith and religion of atheism on such as the big bang theory by a knight of malta priest and jesuit priests who are behind the theory of relativity and egyptian evolution?

the ball is in your court.

I pray that YHWH will convict you before it is too late, because whether you like it or not, the truth is the truth and one day you will see Jesus face to face on the great white throne judgment and there will be no deals cut at that point in time. God's only concern now is: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY SON?

Lord Bless
Mr. M
Sovereign Sentient Soul In The Adversary Satan's World
Granted Sovereignty By The Lord Jesus Christ
Free From Mystery Babylon's Spiritual Abyss!

Ty Gordon Arthur

You have refused to give any sort of straight answer to any question posted to you, and now the ball is in my court to give YOU answers?

I love it when Christians try to say that atheism is a religion based on faith. Atheism is a religion only in the sense that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Which is to say, it isn't at all.

The "faith" bit is also incredibly amazing. Do Christians mean that as an insult or a compliment? Either way it makes them look bad. Atheism demands evidence before believing, which makes it anathema to blind faith.

Mr. M, you don't seem to realize that I could swap out the name of your deity and use your arguments directly back at you with no change at all. "I pray that ZEUS will convict you before it is too late, because whether you like it or not, the truth is that one day you will see HADES face to face and there will be no deals cut at that point in time." Did my statement make you change your mind at all?

The burden of proof falls on you to prove that your supernatural invisible friend is real. It should be so easy too, considering the miraculous acts you are willing to attribute to him. Go ahead - prove the supernatural is real. To make it easier, I will only require that you do something that occurred in the Bible, so we know that God won't have a problem doing it. Go ahead and part a sea, or resurrect the dead, or show me a talking snake, or create a bush that burns but is not consumed and has a big booming voice coming out of it.

I'm waiting.

I will ask (pointlessly I know) yet again - how you justify following a deity you felt that stoning children to death and owning slaves was morally acceptable? Surely you can recognize that these are not morally acceptable practices, and that they never have been?

You have also failed to explain why you don't follow those verses, but still follow other verses in the old testament. How do you decide which ones were taken care of by Christ's blood, and which ones you still get to follow and quote to unbelievers?

Mr. M

Ty conversation is done, I love you man. But u are deceived by the god of this world. I answered your questions and will never stone my kids because of the lamb sacrifice of YHWH.

Vatican agents love you as well might I add, you eat of their "evidence" up. Out of humor, if u have kids, did u see them coming out of the mother's vagina thinking "wow, evolution is a trip"

YHWH deliver us from big bangs, cosmic soups, evolving apes and the coming alien disclosure which you will eat up in your unsaved state because we are all in the image of the most high. Praise YHWH.

Ty Gordon Arthur

Oh for the love of...

Mr. M: you just have to provide me with one single straight answer. I promise it won't hurt. You say that you would never stone your kids because of the lamb sacrifice - but why don't you have a problem with the fact that God wanted child stoning to occur pre-lamb sacrifice? Aren't YOU the one who is supposed to believe in moral absolutes?

Moreover, why is your God so bloodthirsty to begin with? Notice how he couldn't manage to save the world from sin without killing his own kid?

Oh, and I'm guessing by the fact that you completely ignored my statements again that you can't show me anything supernatural to back up your ridiculous claims.

Conversations With The Religious - Santa Claus Never Died For Anyone

I've been engaged in many discussions over Facebook recently with people of varying religious stripes, and I'm coming across a lot of the same silly "arguments" and deflections in most of them. This is one that started a string of discussions lately on the morality of the Bible, although it's only briefly touched on here towards the end. Like with my previous "Conversations with the Religious" posts, I've used acronyms to protect the stupid.

Everyone gets their own identifying color like this or this, and I've left everything in tact as it was written. Unfortunately this makes some of the religious folk's posts near unreadable, as I've found that Christians on Facebook almost uniformly lack the ability to form paragraphs, use any sort of spell check feature, or understand basic grammar.

This particular discussion was started because a friend of a friend posted this humorous picture:

The best part about it is that the church that posted this doesn't seem to understand quite just what they are saying. They are inadvertently admitting that Jesus and Santa Claus belong in the same category, and completely miss why people compare them to each other.

Several Christians came on to harrass the guy about posting it, as many of his Facebook friends are religious. The conversation follows. I came (very) late to the party, so my responses are way down towards the bottom.

One of my favorite moments is without a doubt when one religious person informs me that he can't wait to get to heaven so he can walk past the "I Told You So" holding cell and gloat over my eternal damnation. That's definitely the moral high road right there.


M.
Atleast you are reading the church signs! Lol. You only display pics that you think might put a truth to your non-believing, and that's ok. It doesn't take a "church" to prove or convince you or anyone that there is a God; your living proof of that!! Lol. I know you didn't need a "fat and jolly" guy to make u smile, heck I remember u used to always be smiling! So if you only believe in real things you can see, then you don't even believe in love?! Wow! What a shame you miss out on that! Oh, I definitley always have happy earth day (it's not a mother cause it doesn't have a crotch, according to your previous comments!) because earth is Gods!!! Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Gotta love crazy church signs! My husband and I saw one the other day that said, "Acceptance Through Brokenness." We thought it was a fairly accurate assessment of Christianity, but we couldn't imagine how it would sway anyone to attend a church service. There's another church sign in our town that says, "Heaven or Hell: It's Your Choice". Given the choice, I'll take Hell. There's more to do and I'm sure the people there are a lot more interesting! ;)


R.
I dated an old girl once that I loved sooooo much!!!! She was way out of my league and couldn't believe she liked me... I was playin music at the time and put her on the back burner. Naturally she moved on and it broke my heart. To justify what had happened though I turned it around on her! I mocked her, I insulted her, i cut her down, I blamed her, i did everything in my mind to convince me it was all her fault when deep down I knew the truth!! Seeing ur post I see something deeper than an ex druggie figuring out that God is a joke!! So deep that maybe you yourself won't even admit it!!! For some reason a person who don't "believe" in God sure spends a lot of time trying to disprove him!!! If there's no such thing why spend so much time defending your "mother earth" that you never talk about?!? And do me a favor!! Quit lumping "religion" or perverted priest, or stupid "church" signs to vent ur anger towards God!!! There's "crooked,perverted, weird, uneducated idiots in EVERY walk of life, even in mother earths!!!!! I hate religion to Billy but call it for what it is!!!!!

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
@R., I can't speak for Billy, but as a former Christian turned atheist, I spend a lot of my time trying to educate my Christian friends about their faith because I want to help free them from the religious shackles that bind their ability to use logic and reason. When I was a Christian, no one ever told me that there is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. No one ever told me that the New Testament accounts of Jesus' life weren't written by eyewitnesses, but were written DECADES after the events they purport to describe. I promote atheism because I believe that the world would be a better place without religious delusions.

R.
Here we go Meagan!!!! Unlike ur former uneducated "Christian" friends I can debate you if that's what you want!! First of all your wrong!! Way wrong!! There's plenty of historical evidence of christianity so not sure where that came from!! Our entire timeline is based on the birth and death of this man you say never existed!!! There is historical evidence of people witnessing the miracles of Jesus! Jews will even admit that but write it off as demonic!! In our courtrooms today, eye witness accounts can get you on death penalty faster than any evidence!!! If someone "winesses" what they saw its evidence like no other!! Can make or break a case!! When its more than one, like over 500 than to me thats pretty good evidence!!!So that's a pretty good case!! Second of all the gospel of Matthew was written 55 yrs after the fact of the resurection... Historically making it one of the most accurate books In history! The disciples written about in the account of Matthew would have still been around at ti e of the gospel being written! Look at the timelines of "history" we teach our kids as the "gospel" in our school systems!!! Some of the "historical facts" we preach to the kids in school is written as far as 500 years or more after the fact!!!! But everybody is ok with that!!! The problem being u don't want to believe in something where your fate depends on whether it's right or wrong!!!! Another issue is ur reading some speculation "written" by someone and "believing" that as the "gospel" isn't that what were all doing?!? Except where yours is opionion, there is historical facts to my beliefs, and eternal consequenses where I don't want to chance, do ur homework a lil better than watching Bill Mahr, and reading one sided opinions!!!! I told Billy before, I spent my whole smoke filled 20's not wanting to believe all this!! But the more I tried to disprove it, the more I fell in love with a true, and living God that you say don't exist!!! Has nothing to do with religious bondage, but everything to do with a God who loves me!!!!Yes relgion is discusting, stupid people have ruined it for soo many who were hungry for God and sickens me that most "Christians" can't defend their faith!! It's justification for you to do what you want to do and to that I say "go for it"!! Live your life beliving we came from earths crotch and hope like Hell your right..... Oh wait, there's no Hell either to you.... If your such the scholar and your mrs edgecator of us dumb rednecks. I want an explanation of life, plants, trees, galaxy's, babies, etc. Please enlighten me!!!!

M.
Oh my!! Funny thing is, Billy sits back and laughs at what he has started! Silly atheist...

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
@R., there is no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. None. Zip. Zero. It is you, sir, who are mistaken. The only historian to even mention Jesus in his writings is Josephus. In his mention, Josephus uses the word "Christ", which is a title, not a name and may not have meant Jesus of Nazareth at all. Not only that, but this mention was found to have been a forgery. Even before this revelation, it should have given people pause that Josephus mentions this "Christ" just a few chapters away from Hercules. Your entire religious timeline, from birth to death to resurrection, is based on a character that is just as fictional as Hercules.

I'm sorry R., but you have no grasp of history. Modern history textbooks may be written hundreds of years after the events they describe, but the actual historical facts were first recorded by those involved or by local historians at the time. Even IF the original apostles were still alive when the gospels were written they would have been very old and, for all we know, senile. If, like you believe, the events in the New Testament actually happened, wouldn't it be vitally important to make a record of these events immediately? Why wait decades and allow the details to become fuzzy or fabricated? As any fisherman knows, the fish gets bigger the more times the story is told...and eventually you have a Jewish Zombie Savior.

Have you even read the Bible? I have, not once, but many times...cover to cover. My atheism is not rooted in rebellion or hatred for god, it's rooted in my firm, moral opposition to what the Bible teaches. The Bible is an evil, immoral book that reinforces man's own prejudices. I have far too much moral integrity to believe in the Bible or its teachings.

R., I'd love to educate you on babies. When a man and a woman love each other very much... Just kidding. ;)

Seriously though, my explanation for "life, plants, trees, galaxy's, babies, etc." is simple: look to science, study evolution.

Because I know that your next move will be to say that science is just as much a belief as faith, let me leave you with one of my favorite Christopher Hitchens quotes:

"Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science or reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason."

R.
Meagan your wrong and you know it!!!!! Josephus was not the only historian to write about Jesus!!!! Their were eye witness accounts and who are you to deem some one senile out of pure speculation!!! I could continue with so much more from iliad and oddesy to the conversion of Saul, to Paul or how 12 men were able to carry out the gospel throughout the entire world and all but one die as mayrters about a 33 yr old man who was murdered on the cross and thus began our timeline as we know it,(that u still didn't explain) but ur gonna believe "science" over faith so whatever Everythings created by something!!! Darwin himself admitted that!! At least my belief makes since! I'm not responding back because ur set in ur ways but ur wrong!!!!! And if everything was so cut and dry like you make it how come were not all atheist!!!! I'm done!!! I'm gonna go cut down an oak tree and piss on some blue bonnetts!! You win!!!!!

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Wow R., you sure know how to showcase your ignorance. I know you said that you weren't responding anymore and that's fine, you're free to keep your head buried in the sand, but I'm hoping you'll at least see my response to your ludicrous drivel.

You say that Josephus wasn't the only historian to mention Jesus, but you fail to mention any other historian that supposedly wrote of him. I hate to break it to you buddy, but "The Illiad" and "The Odyssey" are FICTION!! Though, your use of them as references helps me understand how you can believe the Christian myth.

As for using the Bible as a reference to the "truth" of Christianity, let me put it to you this way... Let's say I told you that I had an ancient book that "proved" that leprechauns were real. You'd be perfectly right in asking me for proof. Well, what if I said, "Look right here in my little book about leprechauns...it says right here that leprechauns are real, that this book is true and anyone who doesn't believe in its truth will be unable to enjoy the party at the end of the rainbow." Ridiculous, right? Hopefully you're intelligent enough to see the pattern here...

The reason more people aren't atheists is because they either lack the ability to think logically or prefer to live in a fairy-tale world to make themselves feel better.

Also, R., you never answered my question on whether or not you had read the Bible. I'm guessing that you haven't read it. Based on the whole of your response I'm surprised you can read at all.

R.
You admitted everything I came back with but put ur own spin to it discrediting the historians and disciples!!! Now ur insulting me cause I'm not bending over like all other Christians!!! I have read the bible a few times myself, as you think that's some great feat!! but unlike u I choose to believe it. At the end of the day you believe your book and I'll believe mine!!!!! I have nothing to lose!!!! You have everything to lose!!!!! Now im gonna go get my banjo and play me some Jesus music!!!!!!

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
R., if you've read the Bible and choose to believe it, I'm insulting you because you have no morals, not because you refuse to "bend over like other Christians". Also, believing in Christianity "just in case" is no great moral feat...it's a cowardly act.

I've got two YouTube videos I want to share with you. If you can watch these videos and discuss them with me, I'll think you less of an idiot. If you're as strong in your faith as you profess to be, you've got "nothing to lose", right? ;)





R.
I'll be glad to if you will read Lee strobels "Case for Christ"!!!! At the end of the day it's again ur opinion against mine!!!! Again, for ur sake I hope ur right!!!! Personally I love my God fearing, loving, life!!!!!! Were not all just here for no reason!!!!! That makes no since!!! Insult me all u want but your explination of creation makes no since!!!!

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
You know what R., I WILL read Strobel's "Case for Christ". The book is currently checked out from my local library with an estimated wait time of 23 days. When they have it again, I'll pick it up.

Its a common misconception that when you become an atheist you accept a life with no meaning. I've seen tons of Christians cling to their faith in the fear that a life without god will be meaningless. That's far from the truth. My life is full of love, happiness and purpose. I've found meaning in my life, it just isn't supernatural. We're both here because our parents had sex. What we make of our lives is up to us. There isn't some supernatural puppeteer running the show.

You say that my explanation of creation "makes no since" (it's 'sense', by the way, not 'since' and 'you are' is two words, not the bastardized abbreviation 'ur'). But ask yourself, do talking snakes and zombie saviors really make sense? They wouldn't, if you hadn't grown up with them.


M.
Megan, R. and I could be wrong and we are ok with that.....but NO MATTER what, your still gonna look like that!! Lol

R.
Historical verification: Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a (ca. A.D 100-500) The Talmud acknowledges Jesus' ability to do miracles and attributes this ability to sorcery. The Jewish authorities in Jesus' day did not deny that Jesus performed signs (Matthew 9:34) but attributed them to the power of Satan... Here's Thallus, historian 3rd book of histories (52 A.D) Thallus recorded the darkness (speculated as a solar eclipse) which occured during the crusifixion of Jesus. The darkness was prophesied in Amos 8:9 and recorded by Matthew's gospel in chapt 27:45 the Old testament contains over 2000 predictive prophesies which are very specific and detailed. In Jesus Christ, 456 indentifiable messianic prohesies were fulfilled. The chances of anyone fulfilling just 48 prohesies is a probability of 10 to the 157th power. According to Borel's single law of chance, anything beyond 10 to the 50th power is impossible. This clearly indicates that a supernatural agent was involved. Jesus' miracles were performed in the open and served to validate his claims. Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, fed thousands of people from a handful of food, demonstrated power over nature and even raised the dead. No first century eyewitness ever denied Jesus' ability to do miracles Over 27,000 sites have been discovered that have connection to the old testament period. Not only have these discoveries provided external confirmation to hundreds of scriptural assertions, not one archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical refrence!! Discovered in 1947 at Qumran the DEAD SEA SCROLLS confirm the reliabilty of the biblical text. These scrolls dating from 3rd century B.C to 1st century A.D are the earliest copies of old testament books. Their predicted and fulfilled prophecies provide evidence for the devine orgin of the bible. "He (jesus) was the Christ... He appeared to them alive on the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other things concerning him." Flavius Josephus (ca. 37-97 A.D), jewish historian, Antiquities 18:3. Jesus being seen by over 500 eyewitnesses; and empty tomb; Jesus' disciples would not change their story in the face of execution!! The reliabilty of the new testament is also beyond reproach. More than 24,000 partial and complete copies of the New testament are available today. Not only are the New testament documents superior because of their great numbers, but because the time span between the orginal autographs and their copies. The new testament in comparison to other ancient manuscripts is virtually free from any corruption. Textual critics have found only one-half percent of the New testament has no variation. These variations for the most part deal with matters of spelling or word order. Not one single variant has any bearing on a doctrine of faith...( I can send a a graph showing dates if need be) Christianity does not require "blind faith" but intelligent faith". becoming a Christian is not a leap into darkness but a step into light.... You can make fun of me all you want! I realize my grammar sucks and maybe im just a dumb redneck but there is more to all this than you want to believe!!!! Again its my word against yours!!!! God bless!!

Ty Gordon Arthur
R., first of all, I have read Lee Strobel’s works, as well as many of the other famous apologetics like Josh McDowell. They were required reading at the Christian school I attended. Like Megan, I’ve also read the Bible cover to cover on more than one occasion. Secondly, adding extra exclamation points isn’t going to make me buy what you have to say. One per sentence will do just fine.

You appear to have systematically missed or purposefully ignored nearly everything in Megan’s posts. You went and quoted Josephus as some sort of proof of the existence of Jesus after Megan specifically mentioned him. Apparently you missed that the words you are quoting from Josephus have been proven to be a forgery since the 17th century? But let’s say for the sake of argument that you want to ignore that fact, you still have to deal with the problem that Josephus also talks about Hercules in the same text. Are you going to suddenly start worshiping Zeus and believing in Hercules because Josephus talks about him?

The majority of your last post is an attempt to use the Bible to prove the Bible, which Megan again specifically mentioned in a previous post. If Megan tells you her holy book says leprechauns exist, and as proof points to her book again, are you going to believe her? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I’ve yet to see any compelling evidence, let alone extraordinary evidence, for a zombie Jew who could magic up some booze from water. You also mentioned the many prophecies in the Old Testament that were “fulfilled” in the New Testament. We can both agree that the New Testament was in fact written after the Old Testament, correct? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out just what happened there.

There’s really no such thing as “intelligent faith,” as there is nothing intelligent in believing in talking snakes, bushes that burn but are not consumed and have big booming voices, or floating disembodied hands that scribble instructions on walls. There is fantasy and there is reality, and Christianity is clearly in the former category. If you disagree, please feel free to go ahead and perform some sort of supernatural feat right now. Conjure up a talking snake for me, or part a sea, or cause the devil to manifest before me, or resurrect the dead, or perform any other work of magical nonsense to prove me wrong.

Following the Bible is most decidedly a step into darkness. I know that I have no desire whatsoever to use a book as my moral compass if it commands you to stone your children to death when they are rebellious and is perfectly fine with slavery. Plus it commands you to never eat shrimp, which I’m afraid is something I just can’t abide :)

I understand why you want to believe in all this nonsense. It’s scary to think that you will simply stop existing after death, and the world sure is a lot more exciting when you believe you are part of a cosmic battle of good versus evil. Unfortunately wanting something to be true doesn’t make it true. Oh yeah, and if your deity has a problem with anything I’ve written here, he’s more than welcome to come down here and say so himself. Why does he need you to do it for him?

M.
Marilyn Manson called, he wants his freaks back! Damn, your ugly too!

R.
Well man I hope I get to walk by the "I told ya so" holding cell when I'm going in the presence of God! I've provided factual info that b4 Meagan said didn't exist now suddenly it does, but now its not creditable, and again if christianity is so cut and dry stupid wouldn't everyone be an athiest?!? Guess our forefathers, Albert Einstein, Chuck Swindall, Moody, and all the others were just a bunch of unedgemacated rednecks like me and not super intelligant all knowing works of art like you !!! Your gettin into my bible study time so go continue to hate God but hope like everything your right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) but I'm done just like your not gonna talk me into your sorry excuse for creation I'm not gonna talk any sence into you so whatever!!! It's just gettin on my nerves because u don't have anything other than trying to discredit history!!!! Biblical history! All the eye witnesses, the historians, the archeology finds, is just a big mistake. Keep beliving we just zapped here..... Y'all go back in ur dark rooms and hate God!!! I'm gonna love HIM!!! I'm realizing if God himself were to show up you would still argue it!!!! And I can put as many exclamations as I want!!! keep attacking me and my sorry grammar that's fine but the bottom line is y'all are trying to sound all smart with ur big words but have no substance!!!! I've provided the info she said didn't exist now your just making excuses. You choose to think God speaking thru a burning bush is crap but believe that ..... Poof!! And were all here is the "gospel"?? really? Wow! My bible also does not tell me anywhere that it's ok to stone my kids! Guess that was from other freakish propaganda crap you read! Smoke another one and enjoy However long you have left of your lives!!! Leave me alone. I'm for real done. Not that I'm scared to debate cause I have much more but it will do no good!!! Y'all are right. I'm wrong! You win

Ty Gordon Arthur
The Bible commanding you to stone your children to death if they are rebellious is nothing but “freakish propaganda crap” eh? I suggest you read Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and then we’ll revisit the issue. I’d also say you might want to try more thoroughly reading a book before deciding it holds all the secrets of the universe and is going to be your moral guidance. I noticed you also didn’t try to refute the slavery issue, which I assume means you are aware that the Bible makes it clear under which circumstances it’s acceptable to own slaves. Why would you follow a book that condones such an abhorrent and morally bankrupt practice?

I had a good chuckle when you said “Well man I hope I get to walk by the ‘I told ya so’ holding cell when I'm going in the presence of God!” The fact that you want to gloat over my eternal damnation to your invisible sky daddy says something about your character, and is yet another reason why I don’t want to be counted among the adherents of your religion. Your comment also showed another clear reason why people are willing to cleave to religion despite a lack of evidence. Religion lets you believe that people you don’t like will be punished by a supernatural being while you (being the “good guy” of course) will be rewarded. Hmm, what does that sound like? Might want to take another look at the picture that started this whole discussion…

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that you tried to paint Albert Einstein as being a theist or Christian. This is an urban legend that’s been perpetuated by religious people of various stripes for decades now. Einstein has one quote about God that has been taken out of context and repeated ad naseum by Christians for far too long. Einstein himself was even aware this had happened and responded by saying "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." Einstein at best could have been considered an agnostic deist – someone who believes that if some supernatural power exists, it isn’t something you can have a personal relationship with and it doesn’t require any particular action on your part.

It’s very interesting that you keep having to fall back on this idea that Megan and myself somehow hate your deity because we disagree with your religion. I can’t possibly hate your deity, as I don’t even believe that it exists. I think it would be safe to say that you are an atheist in regards to deities such as Zeus or Hecate. Does that mean that you secretly know Zeus is real and just hate him for some reason?

You stated that “if christianity is so cut and dry stupid wouldn't everyone be an athiest?” You don’t seem to realize what a can of worms you’ve opened here. There are lots of people who believe lots of crazy things, but belief doesn’t equal reality. Not everyone disbelieves in voodoo magic or ghosts, so are you saying that means voodoo magic and ghosts are real? I know people who don’t disbelieve in fairies – does that mean that fairies are real? By your reasoning, if fairies were so “cut and dry stupid,” then no one would believe in them.

You’ve again tried to bring up the “eyewitness” accounts of the gospels as proof that Jesus existed and performed magic. I’m not sure why we have to keep rehashing this. The gospels were written decades after the events they describe, so they absolutely are not eyewitness accounts. You are also still missing the point that you can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible. You say that the Bible is true, and when I ask how you know, you then respond by saying you know because the Bible says so. That’s circular reasoning, and it doesn’t hold water at all.

Finally, you said “You choose to think God speaking thru a burning bush is crap but believe that ..... Poof!!” Um, no, I don’t believe that existence just magically happened in a “poof!!” That’s what you believe – that a big invisible man in the sky magically poofed everything into existence in six days.