As research for the book I'm writing, I've put myself into as many religious discussions as possible to see what the average religious person actually has to say when confronted with issues such as the immorality of the Bible or the absurdity in believing in supernatural events without evidence to back them up. I've read the big name apologists, but I'm finding its much more interesting to see what Joe Christian has to say in a real life situation. While many of the discussions see the same issues over and over (deflections of questions, outright ignoring questions, appealing to emotion, personal attacks, etc.), most of them have something unique that showcases a serious problem with the arguments from the religious camp.
Awhile back Megan and I were discussing how our religious friends and family frequently post Bible verses as their Facebook status, but for some reason they never post the extremely offensive or immoral ones. To rectify this oversight, she started posting only the most depraved verses possible as her status updates, and a few other people started following suit. My friend Michael (from the last post about coming face to face with madness) posted a series of verses to show how the Christian God doesn't follow his own rules and commits immoral actions. As usual, several people came on to comment, and most of them refused to answer any arguments at all.
The point that makes this one worth reading is when one participant (whom will call DM), having no answer for any of the issues I raised, randomly decides to give me his personal testimony. Apparently this person thought that I would just forget all the problems with his Bible and the lack of logic in his statements if he flooded me with a storm of personal anecdotes about God changing his life and tales of his deity supposedly healing the sick.
Personal anecdotes have always been a pet peeve of mine, so I again had to post one of my favorite Qualia Soup videos about how they can't be used as the basis for any belief in supernatural events. There are a host of problems with using personal testimonies as some sort of "proof" of anyone's religion. First of all, they ignore that people of both opposing denominations and even opposing religions also have testimonies of how their beliefs changed them, or how their deity supposedly did something miraculous. Obviously they can't all be correct, but no Christian giving a personal testimony is ever bothered in the slightest that Muslims, Jews, and members of radically different Christian denominations all have similar stories that just swap out the name of their deity.
These testimonies also ignore the logical problems of proclaiming that someone recovering from an illness is somehow proof of a deity's existence. If someone accepts that argument, then they also have to be willing to accept the inverse argument. If someone recovering from a sickness (and I'm willing to bet the person's doctor has a different tale to tell besides divine intervention) proves that any given deity does exist, then does it disprove that deity's existence when an otherwise healthy person keels over? What about people who have many believers fervently praying for them, yet they still die?
At one point DM states that his Bible must be true because the dictionary (or presumably any other book) couldn't change his life. We'll put aside the issue that he himself even admits he was drunk out of his mind during this revelation of the Bible (giggle), and go to the real issue here. Apparently this person is unaware of the existence of other holy books and the many people who proclaim they are directly responsible for changes in their lives? Many people have their lives changed by books other than the Bible.
One last thing before we get to the discussion itself - we see an issue here that occurs in many of my upcoming discussions as well. When the religious run out of ammo in any given argument, they then tend to randomly begin attacking evolution instead of defending their own faith. It should be (but somehow isn't) perfectly obvious that the truth or falsehood of evolution has no impact whatsoever of the immorality in the Bible. The contradictions in the Bible don't suddenly vanish, and the immoral verses don't suddenly become moral, if our modern understanding of biology suddenly turned out to be incorrect. Regardless of whether biologists are correct or not, belief in the supernatural still remains silly.
As with the other blogs, each participant in the discussion gets their own color, like this color or this color. Here we go:
Michael
"And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, ...I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." - 2 Chr 18:19-21
"And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee." - 2 Chr 18:21-22
So, God wasn't content for Ahab to be the King of Israel, so he commissioned a lying spirit to mislead him into believing he would be victorious in battle, when really he would be killed. Does this mean that lying is okay as long as it's for God?
A.
Why do people "assume" that they know what God ought to do?
B.
wow that is some confusing ass shit ... was it designed that way ??? or is it just me ???
DM
Did you overlook that what you quoted was a vision through a prophet ~meant~ as an lesson/illustration? It's a description of what happened in a symbolic vision, not a prescription of what should happen by you and me. Here's the problem, "God... cannot lie" (Titus 1:2). Either you're right, or God is. It's easy for me to choose which one I'll believe.
Michael
So it's not a prescription for us. Okay. It doesn't say God lied, but rather that he sanctioned a lying spirit to do his dirty work for him. How's that for morality?
DM
Actually, that's fairly easy. If the king, namely Ahab, didn't want to listen to God, there was only one other option left--a lying spirit. There is only one way or the other--we are with God or we are against Him (Luke 11:23).
Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, you might want to re-read what you just wrote, because your post only further reinforced Michael's point, instead of defeating it.
B.
my opinion is we must look at who wrote the bible ... wasnt a divine being ...
DM
Thank you Ty. Michael is right--kind of. God has no other option. You're with Him or against Him. That's the truth, but being immoral in that was what I was addressing.
And Billy, the Bible says of itself that it was inspired by God through holy men and women (2 Tim 3:16). BUT, we wont change each others minds here on Facebook, so thanks for the comments. =)
Ty Gordon Arthur
This is one of the most disturbing aspects of religion, and something I've come across in many an online discussion. Because the Bible was written by men, and the Biblical deity was made up by men, there are many instances in which the Biblical deity behaves in a very manlike way. Indeed, there are many instances in which he behaves just like the superstitious slave owning bronze age desert dwellers who created him.
Unfortunately this means that Christians will always eventually come into an issue where they have to rationalize God's immoral behavior. In this instance it's as minor as lying or sending a spirit out to lie for him (although in recent discussions it's been about the old testament decrees on slavery, stoning rebellious children to death, and murdering witches). It's disturbing when religious people are reduced to rationalizing such behavior to make up for inconsistencies in their deity's qualities. If God decrees that lying is wrong, he doesn't then get to go and lie. That double standard and lack of morality is so blatantly a manlike quality. If God were all knowing, surely he would have foreseen that there would be a time when slavery was abhorred and stoning children would be a quick way to get your kids taken away by Child and Family Services? On the subject of this particular passage, shouldn't he have known people like Michael would have seen an inconsistency and tried to close the loop hole, so to speak?
DM, you said "the Bible says of itself that it was inspired by God through holy men and women." This is what's known as circular reasoning. You say you know the Bible is true, and when someone asks why, you respond by saying you know the Bible is true because the Bible says so. It's an argument that simply can't be defended. Would you convert to Islam if I told you the Koran was true because the Koran says the Koran is true?
Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DM, aren't you at all concerned about the amount of mental gymnastics that you're having to do here? If I told you that I sent someone to lie to someone else and that lie got people killed, I hardly think you'd be defending my actions. But since it's god, he gets a free pass to do all kinds of TERRIBLE things! If god were real, and if his ways were really "higher than ours", his actions wouldn't be riddled with typical human flaws like jealousy, anger, deceit and violence. You can't actually expect me to believe that an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity is just as petty and spiteful as your average human.
A.: Because I have morals and integrity and the mythological god of the Bible does not.
DM
This is the result of the Bible you say was written by humans. A dictionary could not have done this: (a brief history to the present)
Because of spending time with people raised in families who knew not God, I was smoking by the age of seven. At nine I started drinking, started smoking pot at 10 and playing drums in a heavy metal band for nine years starting also at age 10. During that time I made $25. 57 an hour at the age of 18-19. I drove a 72, SS Chevelle, had beautiful blondish/brown hair going down to the middle of my back, had a stunning girlfriend, the popularity of a band member, and all the drugs and extra women I wanted. The years that I was knowingly apart from God were the most irresponsible, empty, misguided and ill-directed years of my life. When at 19 years old I saw a vision of destruction while intensely inebriated, my life was about to radically change. A voice relentlessly called me to pick up and read the Bible. I finally listened, and within a month I was baptized. I read the Bible from six to eight hours a day for the first year of being a Christian. I was trained as a missionary and called to be a pastor after only four years of accepting to follow God. Since then I have seen more miracles and have had a far better life than ever I could have imagined possible. Why? Because I committed my self to the God in Bible study, prayer, and witnessing. Since becoming a Christian, I’ve seen many lives changed from being like mine to being like Christ’s in radical ways. These lives are an example of multiple miracles each. Beyond the changed lives, I’ve seen Sheri take a CT Scan that showed a major heart attach which the doctors said must have been a mechanical error because of the further tests that were done the next day after I had prayed for the Lord to give her a new heart. Larry’s granddaughter was only two years old with a tumor inside of her head the size of a man’s fist. After praying on our knees together, Larry’s granddaughter was tumor-less while the doctors had no explanation. What about a man named David? He fell many feet from a rock and exploded his ankle. When going in for an x-ray, the results showed that he needed to be immobilized in that leg and would need a cast after the swelling went down. After praying about it, the very next day he woke up, got out of the bed and put on his clothes. He went to work and saw the doctor come in, a non-Christian doctor, which was amazed at his standing and mobility. What about when I was working and heard a mental voice give me an address? I wrote it down, told the boss about it, a Christian, and she said that I should write a letter to it. I knew that it must be to my girlfriend’s mother, who lived on Jajoba road, so I wrote and sent it. A week or two later the response came back with an exasperating note that said, something like, “Thank you sooo much for your letter DM. I had been praying, and that letter was my answer!” Time would fail us both if I were to recall all the times I needed money, clothes, food, and the basic other needs of life while a missionary. While without pay for a year and a half with my family, God sent ample provisions for myself, my incredible family, and enough to share with others. Now, my life has been so changed as to have a peaceful, loving, happy home with my wife and two amazing children.
My testimony is living proof that there is Divine power in the Bible that works to do what it says it will.
I challenge all of you to use the Bible for the next year to find what you can to prove that God is who you say He is, and you will not only see a Holy and Living God, but an angry devil. Open that Word and give it a fair chance, and your lives too will be changed.
A.
Amen DM!!! God is real, no matter how much the devil tries to convince people otherwise.
Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, it's very interesting that you ignored every point Megan and myself made and instead decided you could get your point across with a storm of personal anecdotes. Unfortunately personal anecdotes are never a valid basis for any sort of supernatural belief system. This is an amazing video that very concisely, rationally, and calmly explains why this is so and I'd recommend you watch it:
The problem with these personal anecdotes is that I have no way whatsoever of verifying them. I can't speak with these doctors who supposedly did nothing to heal these people to see what they have to say on the subject. I have no way of knowing if you are simply misinformed or are specifically distorting the truth.
You also have to realize that if you use a personal anecdote to "prove" your supernatural beliefs, then you also have to be open to the opposite anecdotes disproving them. You speak of people being miraculously healed because you talked to yourself while pretending to commune with an invisible sky daddy. What about all the people who are otherwise healthy but suddenly drop dead without any explanation? Does that disprove your God's existence? What about the people who get sick, and have many people fervently praying for them, but don't get better? Does that disprove your God's existence? On a more humorous note, there was recently a news story about a six story tall Jesus statue that was struck by lightning and burned to the ground. Does that prove that Zeus exists and that he's angry at our idolatry and worship of false gods?
I'm sorry to hear that you need a talking snake and a zombie savior to stay off the drugs and keep your life on track. That sounds like a personal failing that doesn't prove anything at all, other than your willingness to be gullible. I don't believe in any man made deities (be it Jehovah, Allah, Hecate, Zeus, Cthulhu, etc.) and yet I'm a moral, monogamous man who doesn't abuse drugs.
On the subject of you hearing voices - please seek help. That's a sign of mental illness, not evidence of an all powerful divine being.
A.
Good thing we are not in old testament times now:
Le 24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
Ty Gordon Arthur
Eh, A., that doesn't help your position in any way. It only further shows how immoral and manlike your deity is. It also only further shows me why I, as a moral person, would never want to be counted as a member of your religion.
DM
Ty, you didn't believe the Bible I referred to in earlier posts, you don't believe my personal testimony, you question the validity of my words in regards to real experiences, and you wont believe anything other than what you think is right, so I don't know that our conversation will do either of us any good. Thanks for your thoughts and your time. But the link you sent me was broken--very telling.
Ty Gordon Arthur
DM, you have yet again failed to answer any questions or actually give a valid response to any arguments. I'll again direct you to re-read your own words here. Your last post describes your actions in this discussion better than my own. You will only believe what you think is right, and have outright ignored every argument against your beliefs instead of addressing them in any way.
I'm not sure what you mean about the link being broken, as I just clicked it and it works fine. If you are having technical difficulties, just hit YouTube and search for "The Problem With Anecdotes." It's the first video by the user Qualia Soup.
Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DM, your last post contributed absolutely nothing of relevance to the debate. Sharing personal testimonies is one of the weirdest defense mechanisms that I've encountered when dealing with Christians. When presented with an argument that they can't counter, Christians invariably spew forth a deluge of ridiculous anecdotes that they think proves the existence of their fictitious deity. I was guilty of doing this exact same thing back when I was a Christian. I had numerous laughable anecdotes in my repertoire, several about god helping me find misplaced items such as an overdue library book, a vial of insulin, two matching socks and a pair of shoes.
DM, if you felt your young life was so out-of-control, why weren't you making steps to change your direction on your own? Did you really need the threat of eternal damnation to motivate you to turn things around?
As for all your personal anecdotes of "medical miracles", I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you. Without any way to verify what you've said, you can hardly expect me to believe your extraordinary claims. I wonder what the doctors would say if we were able to talk to them...I'm sure we'd hear all about how the people in your examples were actually helped using scientifically-verifiable medical procedures.
And Ty's right, hearing voices is a sign of a serious mental illness. Please consult a mental health professional right away.
A., if god were real, he should be so comfortable in his position as an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being that he doesn't care whether or not people are blaspheming him. The passages you posted only work to prove our point: that the Bible is an ancient immoral book that was written by backwards men in the Bronze Age. Also, since we're quoting the Old Testament, I hope you're not wearing any multi-fiber blended clothing (Deuteronomy 22:11). ;)
B.
well DM holy men ... rape young boys does that make it right ???
A.
Ty, I was in no way trying to convince you of anything. You are so intelligent, that you can figure everything out on your own. The Christians that read my last post however, know exactly what I was saying, even if it went right over your head.
Ty Gordon Arthur
I'm loving this recurring trend of the religious people absolutely ignoring every argument and statement and refusing to address them in any way.
I'm afraid I do know what you were trying to say with your last post A. (it wasn't hard to figure out, as you didn't say much of anything, and instead let the Bible talk for you). All issues of you trying to compare Michael to the character in the story aside, reminding all the "blasphemers" that we would have been stoned to death in the old testament for our use or reason most certainly doesn't help your case in any way, and only shows exactly what I've been saying all along.
In fact that particular verse helps my position quite a bit. Why did God show himself to Moses and tell Moses to kill the blasphemer, instead of just showing up to the blasphemer and going "Oh hey, sorry about not making it clear before, but I'm real and you can't blaspheme me." Would have been a lot less killing required. The same holds true today.
As Megan also said (and you also ignored - imagine that, that never happens or anything...) if your God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, then it shouldn't matter to him what we pathetic little mortals think of him. The fact that he cares so much (that guy doesn't like me? Stone him to death!) shows that he is nothing more than a man made construction.
A.
I have asked for proof that the evolution thing is true. So far I have seen nothing concrete. Until I see some proof, I will stick with what I believe, God. I can think for myself. Give me something I can use.
Ty Gordon Arthur
I just don't get it. Are religious people just incapable of responding to queries and arguments? Do they have some sort of logic filter that immediately deletes the words from their memory banks as soon as they are read?
First of all, if you want to see the evidence that backs up evolution, perhaps you should try watching the videos Michael posts or reading the books he's mentioned? There is a wealth of knowledge to be found at your local library and many books on the subject of biology that can easily be acquired. I believe Megan previously had recommended "The Greatest Show on Earth." If you want to know about biology, you need to do the research. Until then, it's really not our job to do it for you.
But you know what, let's say for the sake of argument that biology is total bunk and absolute nonsense. Even if that were true, that wouldn't in any way make the Christian myth suddenly less ridiculous. If biology is utter nonsense, that still doesn't make it even remotely likely that a big invisible man in the sky wants us to telepathically affirm our allegiance to his zombie son because of the actions of a talking snake. Nor would that somehow do away with the problem that the biblical deity is an immoral monster who has supported and condoned some of the most disturbing and evil actions possible.
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