Michael, a friend on mine on Facebook, has recently been posting a series of video clips and news articles regarding the evidence for evolution, answers to common creationist responses, and issues such as the morality of the Bible. His religious friends and family ignored the vast majority of these videos, but on a few they felt the need to comment (although it would appear without having actually watched the videos or reading the articles).
One of the videos he posted featured author Richard Dawkins discussing the Christian argument that all of humanity's morality is somehow derived from their religion, and more specifically their holy book. Dawkins talks about some of the more disturbing and immoral tales from the Bible, such as Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac, and how we shouldn't be using this book as our moral guide. For anyone interested in the original video, it can be viewed below.
A few people came on to comment, not about the video itself or any of the arguments it presented, but rather to chastise Michael for not believing in their particular deity. I've been involved in a lot of religious debates online, and seen a lot of really absurd arguments, but this is one discussion in which I can honestly claim I came to face to face with absolute madness. One poster (whom we'll call "Mr. M") goes on an awe inspiring rant, the likes of which I've seldom seen, about mysterious Catholic cults secretly pulling the strings of the entire world and creating the idea of evolution to lead people astray from the truth of the Bible.
I'm not one to defend the Catholic Church, as I myself frequently attack it for systematically creating and then protecting child molesters around the world, but this guy's ideas are so completely out there its hard not to laugh. He also has a wonderfully hilarious conspiracy theory video he felt the need to share, which appears to be greatly inspired by the movie "The Number 23." You can check out it below when he mentions it during the comments. You can, of course, tell the video is 100% accurate because it has scary music in the background and uses fun graphics! I couldn't stop giggling during his dissection of how the hexagram proves Catholics worship the devil - as the same argument could be used of the Tri-Force from the legend of Zelda video games.
One other truly jaw dropping point to look out for is when "Mr. M" says "the stories you never hear about are the southern slaves that were treated great by their white gentile slave owners" while we discuss how the Bible condones the morally bankrupt practice of slavery.
As with the other entries in the "Conversations with the Religious" series, everyone gets their own identifying color such as blue or red, and the religious folks are all given a pseudonym instead of having their real names displayed. And here we go:
Mr. M.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalm 53:1 KJV
Every creation has a creator.
E.
Amen Mr. M
Ty Gordon Arthur
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." Exodus 21:20-21. See how fun it can be to quote Bible verses?
The "every creation has a creator" argument has got to be retired. Does God then have a creator? By saying that God created everything we only move the equation back a single step, we don't solve it in any way.
Michael
Yes Mr. M, but yours just seems hell bent on destroying his own creation. Did you even watch the video?
Mr. M
@Ty: Context context context makes all the difference.
You quoted the law in the OT and we are now under grace in the NT taught through God in the flesh YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH.
"Ye hath god said" is what you're getting at, and that was exactly the FIRST lie from SATAN in the garden that caused the first murder history.
@Ty: The chicken or the egg question has got to be retired. YHWH clarifies your question clearly with...
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM Exodus 3:14 KJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 KJV
Ty Gordon Arthur
Mr. M, you seem to be missing the point that even though your deity has now changed his mind (which, of course, contradicts his claim that he is the same "yesterday as today as tomorrow"), you can't escape the fact that there was a point in which he condoned slavery. Not only slavery, but also beating slaves. Then there are those other fun verses, like the ones that command you to stone your children to death if they are rebellious, or command you to kill the next witch you come across.
Why doesn't it bother you that your God used to be O.K. with owning and beating slaves? Slavery is always wrong - period. It doesn't matter what culture or time frame you live in, slavery is still an abhorrent and a morally bankrupt practice.
It's also rather humorous that you don't want to follow the verse I quoted, because it's in the old testament and we are no longer under that law, yet you want me to follow the verse you quoted - which is also in the old testament. Who decides which ones we follow and which ones we don't?
Michael
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 1:8
Sorry Mr. M, but according to that verse, God isn't allowed to be fickle and change his mind. After all, he is supposed to be omnipotent, right?
Mr. M
See how the one true and LIVING God YHWH has ONE integrated message in over 66 different books by 40 different authors spanning the history of man?
The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
Praise YHWH.
Ty Gordon Arthur
Well you certainly get a prize for "most cryptic and enigmatic answer," as well as possibly "greatest example of mental gymnastics I've seen today," but unfortunately you didn't actually address the issues at hand in any way...
Mr. M
These mystery babylonian satanists in control of the world are building the BEAST system in front of our eyes for the coming man-beast to rule over the coming one world governement, currency and religion ruler.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (666) Revelation 13:16-18 KJV
Ty Gordon Arthur
Ah yes, the "coming man-beast," of course. How could I have been so blind all this time?
Mr. M
See how the one true and LIVING God YHWH has ONE integrated message in over 66 different books by 40 different authors spanning the history of man?
The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
Praise YHWH for he has but one way (Through his ONLY begotten Son Yahshua Hamashiach), while our adversary the Devil has many to keep you off that one way.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:13 KJV
Ty Gordon Arthur
These things you are saying aren't actually helping your position Mr. M. You say that he has "but one way" - so are you then admitting that your deity is still down with slavery and murdering witches? Make up your mind man!
Michael
And look at all the contradictions! Just what you would expect from a bunch of mere mortals writing a collection of books Over thousands of years: check out this link.
BTW Mr. M, another excellent question is where the Bible gets it's authority from. You're not Catholic, are you?
E.
Matt.22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
This is also in the old testament and if you do these two you will be keeping the Sabbath and you won't be killing, COMMITING ADULTRY, stealing. Lying ect. God is love! (1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.)
So many make him out to be a bad man that is standing ready for you to mess up so he can kill you when it is your sin that does you in.When in fact He told his people Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
With all agape love, Blessings~
Mr. M
All you mentioned from the OT scriptures is before the blood of Christ was spilled to redeem the world and put a stop to those practices of the law because there was no messiah and holy spirit.
The law of Christ was Love.
Michael
I love the part where he says he desires no one to be lost, but then he's also admitted to creating the evil ones for the day of judgement. I've pondered those passages for years, and no one ever has a rational explanation except not to question god. Nice.
Ty Gordon Arthur
I could be wrong (I'm not fluent in crazy), but I think he may have been referring to Catholicism with his "These mystery babylonian satanists in control of the world are building the BEAST system" statement. Back in my Christian school days they used to refer to Catholicism as the "whore of babylon" described in Revelations.
To both E. and Mr. M - it's great that you use your religion to teach love, but you still haven't answered why you aren't bothered that there was a point in time in which your God condoned slavery and child murder. It's really irrelevant that the blood of Christ made it so slavery is wrong - you still can't get around the fact that your own book condoned it at one time.
Mr. M, you said that "the blood of Christ was spilled to redeem the world and put a stop to those practices of the law." So are you then saying we can stop following those other old testament laws, such as the bit about homosexuality being an abomination? How about the ten commandments? How do you justify following those old testament laws while refusing to stone your children to death or own slaves?
Michael
So you admit that God changes, in direct violation of your own scriptures?
Mr. M
@E.: Amen
@Michael: No, I expose the Jesuit ruled mystery babylonian papal system here:
Michael
On the Catholicism part, yeah I know he's not Catholic. I'm trying to point out to him that the 66 books he puts his faith in were, in fact, selected and approved as the canon of scripture by the Catholic church itself. ;-)
Mr. M
@Michael: No... those are the codex vaticanus manuscripts you speak of. I base my faith on the original greek antioch textus receptus manuscripts and original hebrew masoretic manuscripts. Not the corrupt egyptian alexandrian manuscripts.
@Ty: I hope the prophecies of YHWH in my video help convict others of their sin and have them seek YAHSHUA HAMASHIACH for salvation. It did it for me.
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. - Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:30 KJV)
Either you believe in YHWH's sacrifice for redemption which lived a sinless life, died, resurrected and is coming back in great power and glory or you are spiritually of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye shall do.
FATHER OF THE BIG BANG THEORY WAS A KNIGHT OF MALTA CATHOLIC PRIEST AND FATHER OF THEORY OF RELATIVITY WAS A CATHOLIC JESUIT PRIEST. THEY ARE TRULY THE MOTHER OF ALL ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH! YOU ARE ALL BUYING INTO THE LIE. DARWIN'S GRANDFATHER WAS A JESUIT AND GOT HIS IDEAS FROM ANCIENT EGYPTIAN POEMS. DAWKINS IS A JESUIT RULED VATICAN PAWN.
@Ty: you love and pray for those lost in the name of Jesus Christ so that the power of the helper (holy spirit) convicts them. also, remember God even held his own people (Israelites) in captivity (slavery) in babylon and egypt.
Michael
Mr. M, who decided which books to include in the canon? Your Catholic masters, that's who! ;-) This isn't about source texts, although I would be highly impressed if you did red Greek and Hebrew!
Mr. M
@Ty: do you ever bash the "other side" like occultists, witches and etc.
There truly is another side fighting against the good believe it or not. It's not just deceived or confused people such as yourself that deny the salvation in Jesus Christ. There are some that know Satan is real and serve him as well if not better than plenty of Christians I know.
I find it funny that the TOTAL ONSLAUGHT is on the son of God while nobody ever looks into the occult and bashes that dark crap.
Let alone the Bible NAMES demons which the occult worships like Beliel and etc. I'm sure plenty of atheists out there just like false prophet Christians truly worship lucifer or satan behind the scenes and are leading many into eternal damnation unknowingly OR knowingly. Think about that one for a sec.
Michael
And, back to the original morality issue, I think the point remains unchallenged that the god of the bible has shown morality traits that would not be acceptable anywhere today in society. Thus, it can hardly be claimed that the source of morality is the aforementioned book.
Mr. M
@Michael: the books were decided by protestant reformers who were once catholics and were fed up with the temporal power of the pope, because they saw such horrible hypocrisy. Remember the inquisitions where millions of TRUE bible believers were killed by the vatican?
Also, I don't know how to read greek or hebrew but that's why a Concordance comes in handy my friend :)
Michael
The books were decided by Catholic bishops long before the Protestant reformation. You need to go do some further research, because I promise you, on this point you are very misinformed.
Mr. M
All you have is the slavery point that boils down to how the slave is treated and if not done for money (like vatican led black slavery in america) but after conquering other nations and etc as the babylonians did with the Canaanites and the egyptians did with the Israelites.
the stories you never hear about are the southern slaves that were treated great by their white gentile slave owners.
you better get used to the idea of slavery because its coming back when america is stripped of it's guns and is invaded by china and russia and God knows what else the Jesuits have in store.
@Michael: ex-catholic monk martin luther was the first to translate the ot original and nt originals into german and then tyndale and then geneva and then kjv. listen to what the jesuits of rome think of that most majestic kjv.
"Then the Bible, that serpent which, with head erect and eyes flashing threatens us with it's venom shall be changed again into a rod as soon as we are able to seize it for you know but too well that for three centuries past, this cruel asp has left us no repose you well know with what folds it entwines us and with what fangs it gnaws us!" Source: 'The Jesuit Conspiracy: The Secret Plan of the Order.' By Abbate Leone, Published 1848, P. 98
Michael
You're missing my point. Who picked Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John instead of the other gospels and epistles for which Greek manuscripts were available? Literally hundreds of books were available for inclusion. Who picked the 66? Where does the authority of these 66 books come from?
Mr. M
you need to look into the occult atheists and see how the darkness is playing you for suckers.
But don't worry, God will save you if you accept his sacrifice by way of his son Jesus Christ.
Former cahtolics fed up with the papacy helped reformers get a bible in the hand of the people, therefore killing the power of the papacy, therefore they created their super charger the jesuit order which counter-reformed and is not throwing everyone on Earth for a loop.
like i said, your atheists foundations are based on lies from vatican agents... big bang, theory of relativity and evolution! wake up! God preserves his word. PS - that is where faith comes into play for we cannot please YHWH without faith.
Also my faith based on evidence for things not seen. The evidence provided by the oldest manuscripts which mirror the kjv in the dead sea scrolls.
ps - it's awesome to see prophecy being played out before our eyes... atheists will surely eat up YHWH's coming "strong delusion" which is very saddening, because many will perish for a LIE because they did not believe the glorious gospel.
Ty Gordon Arthur
It's funny that you should mention how I don't attack the "other side," because just last weekend I had a long debate on my Facebook about how absurd the idea of voodoo magic and ghosts are. Unfortunately absurd beliefs in the supernatural aren't limited just to Christians :(
OK, I'm calling it - Mr. M has got to be a secret atheist in disguise trying to make Christians look bad. There's no other explanation for the posts I'm reading here.
You have consistently ignored every question posed to you. Why do you think it is acceptable that your deity ever condoned slavery or stoning children to death? I don't care about your deity changing his mind, I want to know how you can feel morally justified in following a higher power who EVER condoned such actions.
You said, "ps - it's awesome to see prophecy being played out before our eyes..."
I absolutely adore this argument from the religious. All monotheistic religions have a built in defense mechanism of "prophecy." If anyone disagrees with your religious beliefs, you can completely ignore them and proclaim that the very act of their disagreement only proves your religion right because of a prophecy proclaiming there will be disbelievers. Brilliant!
Mr. M
@Ty: sure atheists and evolutionists were exposed in the bible but i speak of the historical, scientific and the geo-political goings-on in the world that prove that YHWH's word of prophecy is true. As for the stoning, that was needed because nothing could drive the spirit of rebellion or sorcery out unless they are killed.
remember ty, our ways are not his ways. God is not the author of confusion and preserves his word even though the devil deceives the WHOLE world (unless grounded to that which is good... the bible).
ps - i was raised catholic, turned atheists thanks for the evolution religion/lie indoctrination i got from Rockefeller department of education schooling and i am glad to say now that I am saved and have been convicted of biblical truth.
Ty Gordon Arthur
You said, "As for the stoning, that was needed because nothing could drive the spirit of rebellion or sorcery out unless they are killed." Please don't have children.
You have, yet again, failed to answer the question. Even more humorously, you said that "God is not the author of confusion," despite the fact that you've frequently contradicted yourself and failed to give a single straight answer.
Mr. M
@ty: what do you think about the catholic church (mother of all abominations of the earth) being behind such huge cornerstones that you based your faith and religion of atheism on such as the big bang theory by a knight of malta priest and jesuit priests who are behind the theory of relativity and egyptian evolution?
the ball is in your court.
I pray that YHWH will convict you before it is too late, because whether you like it or not, the truth is the truth and one day you will see Jesus face to face on the great white throne judgment and there will be no deals cut at that point in time. God's only concern now is: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY SON?
Lord Bless
Mr. M
Sovereign Sentient Soul In The Adversary Satan's World
Granted Sovereignty By The Lord Jesus Christ
Free From Mystery Babylon's Spiritual Abyss!
Ty Gordon Arthur
You have refused to give any sort of straight answer to any question posted to you, and now the ball is in my court to give YOU answers?
I love it when Christians try to say that atheism is a religion based on faith. Atheism is a religion only in the sense that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Which is to say, it isn't at all.
The "faith" bit is also incredibly amazing. Do Christians mean that as an insult or a compliment? Either way it makes them look bad. Atheism demands evidence before believing, which makes it anathema to blind faith.
Mr. M, you don't seem to realize that I could swap out the name of your deity and use your arguments directly back at you with no change at all. "I pray that ZEUS will convict you before it is too late, because whether you like it or not, the truth is that one day you will see HADES face to face and there will be no deals cut at that point in time." Did my statement make you change your mind at all?
The burden of proof falls on you to prove that your supernatural invisible friend is real. It should be so easy too, considering the miraculous acts you are willing to attribute to him. Go ahead - prove the supernatural is real. To make it easier, I will only require that you do something that occurred in the Bible, so we know that God won't have a problem doing it. Go ahead and part a sea, or resurrect the dead, or show me a talking snake, or create a bush that burns but is not consumed and has a big booming voice coming out of it.
I'm waiting.
I will ask (pointlessly I know) yet again - how you justify following a deity you felt that stoning children to death and owning slaves was morally acceptable? Surely you can recognize that these are not morally acceptable practices, and that they never have been?
You have also failed to explain why you don't follow those verses, but still follow other verses in the old testament. How do you decide which ones were taken care of by Christ's blood, and which ones you still get to follow and quote to unbelievers?
Mr. M
Ty conversation is done, I love you man. But u are deceived by the god of this world. I answered your questions and will never stone my kids because of the lamb sacrifice of YHWH.
Vatican agents love you as well might I add, you eat of their "evidence" up. Out of humor, if u have kids, did u see them coming out of the mother's vagina thinking "wow, evolution is a trip"
YHWH deliver us from big bangs, cosmic soups, evolving apes and the coming alien disclosure which you will eat up in your unsaved state because we are all in the image of the most high. Praise YHWH.
Ty Gordon Arthur
Oh for the love of...
Mr. M: you just have to provide me with one single straight answer. I promise it won't hurt. You say that you would never stone your kids because of the lamb sacrifice - but why don't you have a problem with the fact that God wanted child stoning to occur pre-lamb sacrifice? Aren't YOU the one who is supposed to believe in moral absolutes?
Moreover, why is your God so bloodthirsty to begin with? Notice how he couldn't manage to save the world from sin without killing his own kid?
Oh, and I'm guessing by the fact that you completely ignored my statements again that you can't show me anything supernatural to back up your ridiculous claims.
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