Sorcerers and Whoremongers!

This particular segment in the "Conversations with the Religious" series is actually way out of chronological order, and I'm pushing aside a ton of my back log to post it now. However I thought it was prudent, as the poster of the original comment that started the discussion recently deleted the entire thread so no one can see it. Given that, I figured I should put it up now.

We've actually been having a long series of discussions with two of the people in this one, so there's some interesting issues that should be explained first. "DD" is a family friend who decided to make an attempt to convert Megan and myself over a social networking site. The person affectionately referred to as "120man" (you'll find out why on later posts) decided to jump into some of them, and then also added us as friends on that particular site. This individual has a habit of frequently contradicting things previously stated (as you'll see in many future posts), and we've even noticed that other Christians come on to attack 120man's nonsense, which of course is humorous to no end to the heathens.

This particular post came about because 120man claims Jesus was never afraid, and Megan couldn't resist pointing out that Luke 22 very clearly says he was in anguish over that whole upcoming unpleasant crucifixion (as God apparently can't come up with a better solution than "human sacrifice" to any given problem).

Both of these particular posters have frequently decided that any aspect or Christianity they don't like is "man made doctrine" and not part of the truth (Which their particular denomination has of course, while the others do not - this is especially humorous here, as the things these individuals say during these discussions would seem to indicate they are of different denominations). That's why you'll see Megan mention how something is "man made doctrine," as a poke at their nonsense and a taste of their own medicine.

The real goods show up towards the end, when someone compares us to "sorcerers and whoremongers" and decides that the best course of action to convince us to join a religious group is to threaten us with eternal hellfire. Some people just don't think these things through. As with the last post, I've added in several links directly to specific verses or issues that are discussed.

We again see the same deflections brought up that seem to happen in every conversation with new religious folks now. Watch as people who have never spoken with us before decide that the arguments we are using aren't really what we mean, and that the real reason we don't believe in their particular religion is because of some secret internal torment.

Each person gets a color like brown or red to make it easier to identify who is speaking and who is being quoted. Here we go:

120Man
I didn't see Jesus doing much for himself, he ate and drank... He served... He healed... I never have seen a verse where He worried or was afraid. He suffered for others... Arrogance is living for anything Jesus didn't live for.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Apparently you've forgotten about Luke 22:39-44. Read your own holy book.

RF
Arrogance is exhaulting ones self above what God has made or called one to be... The teaching of false doctrine is often a result of arrogance...

DD
Jesus wasn't worried or afraid in Luke 22. He was in anguish, as verse 44 says, and suffering because of the world's sin that He had to bear, hence the sweating of blood.

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
DD,

"He was in anguish, as verse 44 says, and suffering because of the world's sin that He had to bear, hence the sweating of blood."

The passage doesn't say that Jesus was in anguish because he was feeling the weight of the world's sin. That's man-made doctrine that someone has told to you. Read what the passage actually says: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (Luke 22:42) It goes on to say, "And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." (Luke 22:44) If you read what the passage actually says it sounds like Jesus wasn't really looking forward to his upcoming role in a grisly human sacrifice.

RF
Megan it sounds like your last sentence is agreeing with DD's last sentence, but you seem to not understand that the cross was part of bearing the sins of the world...I would have to agree with the first sentence in your first comment, but the second sentence was a little uncalled for... I think 120Man's post is very understandable in the context he was using it in... @ 120Man, I was just adding to your comment on arrogance, as I like to spiritually define it, but not taking away from your description...

120Man
Maybe Jesus wasn't excited to leave the disciples yet. Its possible Jesus was asking about if it was time... He said " yet not my will, but yours be done." Jesus felt what we felt. He was tempted just like anyone else. He has feelings.

RF
Probably would be best to let Jesus answer that, some time during our eternity with him... It's more convenient for us to talk about what he has revealed to us, and not speculate on what he hasn't.... Might be a good idea to get back to subjects that cause edification and not speculation....

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
RF,

"Megan it sounds like your last sentence is agreeing with DD's last sentence"

Hmm, I see what you're trying to say here, but DD and I are coming to this argument from two totally different sides. DD is refusing to admit that the text of Luke 22 suggests that Jesus felt worry, fear, or at the very least apprehension, over what was to come. Suggesting that someone wouldn't feel worry or fear when they knew they were going to be brutally murdered is disingenuous.

Oh, and by the way, I'm debating this from a purely literary perspective. Jesus and god aren't real, so no, we won't have the opportunity to question them about any of the events that occurred in the Bible.

RF
Megan, the bible says; The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God....Guess this explains why you spend so much time reading, studying, debating, and even trying to teach, something you don't even believe to begin with??? A little confusing to say the least! The spirit that has deceived you believes there is a God, that's why it is using you to try and bring confusion and discord among brethren. Most Christians today would try and tickle your ears with scripture about love and grace, but since your so knowledgable in scripture, I won't waste my time. I'll just leave you with this; But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8) If you ever change your mind, just remember what the others have told you, and what you have read; about God's mercy and Grace....Then follow up with prayer, and repentance....

Megan Equality Mattingly-Arthur
Hi RF,

Since I've read the Bible cover-to-cover several times I'm familiar with it's many self-serving verses.

Compare your using the Bible to prove the Bible to this hypothetical example:

Me: I have an ancient book that says leprechauns are real and anyone who serves them faithfully will get to frolic with the king leprechaun in his own kingdom.

You: Prove it.

Me: Well, my ancient book about leprechauns says it's all true!

You: That's ridiculous!

Me: *gasp* My book says you'd say that! It says that anyone who doesn't believe in the glorious truth of the almighty king leprechaun will not get to share the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but will, in fact, have a runny nose for all eternity!

"The spirit that has deceived you believes there is a God, that's why it is using you to try and bring confusion and discord among brethren."

I've never been contacted by the supernatural. So no, there's no spirit-related deception (or deception of any kind for that matter) going on here.

"Most Christians today would try and tickle your ears with scripture about love and grace, but since your so knowledgable in scripture, I won't waste my time."

Aww shucks, thanks for the complement!

"I'll just leave you with this; But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)"

Well, gee, thanks for spouting that little pearl of nonsense at me. Threatening me with a burning second death will DEFINITELY make me want to drink your Kool-Aid *sarcasm*! ;)

"If you ever change your mind, just remember what the others have told you, and what you have read; about God's mercy and Grace....Then follow up with prayer, and repentance...."

Believing what "others have told you" would be having faith in others, not god. Remembering what I've read also wouldn't help lead me to Christianity because of how many atrocities god committed in the Bible. I could never worship someone that immoral. ;)

Ty Gordon Arthur
‎"the bible says; The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God"

Imagine that, your Bible says your Bible is right. It's not like every other religion on the planet feels the same way or anything.

"Guess this explains why you spend so much time reading, studying, debating, and even trying to teach, something you don't even believe to begin with?"

We get this in every discussion about religion ever, and it's getting so old. First off, we debate with religious people all stripes every day - not just your denomination and religion. We equally find any supernatural belief to be absurd, whether it be about magic or ghosts or unicorns or a talking snake and a zombie savior. We spend so much time debating this because religion is a blight upon our species. It causes people to try to take away each other's basic human rights, it causes people to strap on explosive vests and run into market places, it causes people to rationalize the edicts in the Bible regarding murder, rape, and slavery, and it actively impedes scientific and medical advancement.

"But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Well unfortunately we aren't sorcerers or whoremongers (although they both sound like a lot of fun!). But anyway, choosing to follow a set of rules out of fear of hell isn't a moral action - it's the definition of an abusive relationship.

RF
Funny how you guys can find all that knowledge in the world, but can't seem to find any faith at all, why don't you show up at church sunday, the kids will enjoy your leprechaun stories, and maybe you can find the faith that has been missing from your lives in the preachers sermon... Hope you both get saved, from the wrath that awaits those who mock God... It's my experience with unbelievers like yourselves, that as death seems to approach, the attitudes seem to change, I don't think there will be any difference as your time approaches, as it is with the others. The terrified look on their faces says it all, the weird thing is that the undertaker can't even change the look of fear, that seems to be on the faces of all the unbeleivers when they pass.... But I can already guess, that your arrogance is above admitting you are really seeking to know Jesus, now, but can't seem to understand how to find him, first you must realize that he is not the one that's lost; you are! Perhaps if you would repent and ask his forgiveness, He might grant you to have what you are desiring; his love, mercy, and grace. I've ran into your type before, and you are all the same; hurting and tormented inside, from experiences you have been through. To ashamed to turn around, because you have built such a reputation, of being rebellious, but hoping to find someone who can give you hope and proof that God exists, and he loves you, and can remove the burden of guilt and shame from your life, and that he can rid you of the spirits that torment your souls and cause you to rebel against him. I'm just the one who can lead you to him my friends, but I won't be debating, arguing, compromising or any thing else the devil would love for me to partake in, to do it. You either accept the offer, or move on and accept the outcome of your current choice. Just remember this; if Jesus is tugging at your heart, you better answer the call, it might just be your last opportunity to know him...

Ty Gordon Arthur
It's interesting how in nearly every conversation we have with the religious we see the exact same non-arguments, deflections, and weird assumptions. Well, let's get it on it. RF, your words are in quotes to streamline the discussion.

"why don't you show up at church sunday"

Megan and I both started from the Christian perspective and changed our minds in the face of facts. We were raised in religious homes, have read the Bible cover to cover on multiple occasions, and I even attended Christian school. I've been to Apostolic Pentecostal services and charismatic services and Baptist services and Mormon services and so on and so forth already.

"It's my experience with unbelievers like yourselves, that as death seems to approach, the attitudes seem to change"

You've pointed out here exactly why grown adults are willing to believe in absurd fairy tales like a talking snake and a zombie savior without any proof. No one wants to think that death is the end, and obviously it's much preferable to believe one lives forever in some sort of blissful heaven. Unfortunately, wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. I want to have super powers that let me fling fireballs and fly, but wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.

"But I can already guess, that your arrogance is above admitting you are really seeking to know Jesus, now, but can't seem to understand how to find him"

Let me help you out here - Jesus was hiding behind Curt Cobain's couch, but I hear now he's hanging out with Tori Amos. Seriously though, no, neither of us is seeking your God or his zombie son, as we don't believe either being exists. Are you really seeking Zeus right now, but your arrogance is too great to admit it, and you just can't seem to understand how to find him?

"He might grant you to have what you are desiring; his love, mercy, and grace."

In no way do I desire "grace" from a deity whose holy book includes rules on stoning children to death, proper slave ownership, and commands to murder witches and steal virgins.

"I've ran into your type before, and you are all the same; hurting and tormented inside, from experiences you have been through. To ashamed to turn around, because you have built such a reputation, of being rebellious, but hoping to find someone who can give you hope and proof that God exists, and he loves you, and can remove the burden of guilt and shame from your life, and that he can rid you of the spirits that torment your souls and cause you to rebel against him."

This is such a weird deflection, and we run into it nearly every time. It's rather odd that you, who don't know either Megan or myself at all, would immediately assume we are "hurting and tormented inside." I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no, no such hurt or torment exists. Megan and I actually have amazingly wonderful lives (ask 120Man how well it worked for him when he demanded to know how "blessed" we are). We are both more than willing to tell you the real reasons we are atheists, so you don't need to make up fake reasons for us.

We are atheists because we can distinguish fantasy from reality. We are atheists because religion is a social disorder that causes more problems than it solves. We are atheists because the "holy books" of the world are vile, twisted, and morally bankrupt pieces of filth.

Now I want you to think about the fact that you decided we are hurt and tormented inside by past experiences, and that's why we are atheists. You RF, are an atheist in regards to the deity Zeus. Should I then infer that you are hurt and tormented inside due to your experiences with Zeus's followers, and that's why you stubbornly refuse to follow him, even though you know he's real? How about the Islamic deity Allah? I'm going to assume that you don't believe in him either - does that mean you are really hurting inside and secretly want to be Muslim?

"You either accept the offer, or move on and accept the outcome of your current choice. Just remember this; if Jesus is tugging at your heart, you better answer the call, it might just be your last opportunity to know him..."

Again, your cosmic Jewish zombie who is his own dad isn't tugging at anyone's heart, as he isn't real. And for the record, we reject the offer, from your man-made deity and any other man-made deity you'd care to name.

"I'm just the one who can lead you to him my friends,"

That's interesting, because maybe I'm just the one to lead you out of the darkness of blind faith and into the light of reality. There's a whole wonderful world out here were you don't have to be terrified of supernatural entities or go through the mental gymnastics required to believe in them. Think about it.